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How to purchase and exchange your litecoin! (longer read)
This post will show you the best ways to buy litecoins using many different payment methods and exchanges for each method. Before you start, make sure you have a good litecoin wallet to store your LTC. NEVER store your litecoins on a crypto exchange.
Start trading fast; high limits
Easy way for newcomers to get bitcoins
Your capital is at risk.
High liquidity and buying limits
Easy way for newcomers to get bitcoins
“Instant Buy” option available with debit card
Works in almost all countries
Highest limits for buying bitcoins with a credit card
Reliable and trusted broker
Buy Litecoin with Credit Card or Debit Card
Let’s dive into some of the exchanges supporting Litecoin credit card purchases. These exchanges are our favorite ways to buy.
Coinbase is the easiest way to buy litecoins with a credit card. Coinbase is available in the United States, Canada, Europe, UK, Singapore, and Australia. The fees will come out to 3.99% per purchase. Here is a good video that can help walk you through the process of buying on Coinbase, although it’s fairly easy.
Coinmama recently added the ability to buy litecoin directly on the platform. Users from nearly any country in the world can use Coinmama to buy litecoins. Coinmama has some of the highest limits among credit card exchanges.
BitPanda is based in Austria and is a crypto brokerage service. You can buy using a credit card from most European countries.
CEX.io is based in the UK and is one of the oldest crypto exchanges online. CEX.io supports litecoin and its users from nearly anywhere in the world can buy litecoin with credit card on the platform.
Buy Litecoin with Bank Account or Bank Transfer
Coinbase is the easiest way to buy litecoins with a bank account or transfer. Coinbase, like is is for credit cards, is available in the United States, Canada, Europe, UK, Singapore, and Australia. Coinbase is one of primary exchanges used to buy Litecoins. Americans can use ACH transfer (5–7 days wait), and Europeans can use SEPA transfer (1–3 days wait). The fees will come out to 1.49% per purchase.
BitPanda is based in Austria and is a crypto brokerage service. You can buy using SEPA transfer from most European countries. You can also use SOFORT, NETELLER, or GiroPay.
CEX.io also supports litecoin buys via bank account. This is via wire transfer for US citizens, SEPA for Europe, and SWIFT for the rest of the globe.
Binance is now one of the largest if not the largest cryptocurrency exchange in the world. It supports bank and card purchases of Litecoin as well as Litecoin trading pairs with Bitcoin and Etehreum.
Get a Litecoin Wallet
Before we move onto other options: Never store your litecoins on an exchange! Always withdrawal your litecoin to an offline cryptocurrency wallet like the Ledger Nano S or any other wallet that you control. The Ledger Nano S and TREZOR are the best options for secure storage.
Other Methods to Buy Litecoin
If you don’t have a card or want to avoid the high fees, you can use the following methods to buy Litecoin as well. Find out which one works best for you.
Buy Litecoin with PayPal
Unfortunately, there is no easy way to buy Litecoin with PayPal. Other sites will tell you that cex allows for this, but that is no longer the case. You can, however, now use eToro to buy Litecoin, unless you live in the United States. If you live in the US, the only way to buy Litecoin with Paypal is to buy Bitcoin using paypal, and then use the Bitcoins to buy Litecoin. You can easily buy Bitcoin using Paypal on Local Bitcoins. Once you have Bitcoin, you can use an exchange like Coinbase Pro to swap the Bitcoin for Litecoin.
Buy Litecoin with Cash
There is no good way to buy litecoins with cash. LocalBitcoins is the most popular way to buy bitcoins with cash, and it does not have Litecoin support. Other popular cash to Bitcoin exchanges like BitQuick and Wall of Coins also do not support LTC. So you will have to first buy bitcoins with cash then exchange them for LTC using the method described below. The same goes for Bitcoin ATMs. Most do not support Litecoin. So if you want to buy litecoins at a Bitcoin ATM you first have to buy bitcoins and then trade the BTC for litecoins.
Buy Litecoin with Bitcoin
If you already have Bitcoins then it is VERY simple to convert some of your BTC to litecoins. You just need to find an exchange with the LTC/BTC pair, which is most exchanges since LTC/BTC is a very popular pair to trade.
Buy Litecoin with Skrill
BitPanda, mentioned above, also accepts Skrill payments for LTC. The fees will vary and are simply included in your buy price.
Cryptmixer is probably the fastest way to convert BTC to Litecoin. You just enter the amount of LTC you want to buy, and give them a LTC address. Then they will tell you how much BTC to send to their address. Once your BTC is sent, you will have LTC delivered to your wallet very shortly after.
Buy Litecoin with Ethereum
Ethereum has experienced a massive price rise. Nearly a year ago it was $10, and now at over $500, many want to move some of their ETH gains into other coins like Litecoin. Litecoin has very good liquidity, and is very popular among traders especially in China. So this guide is going to show you how to buy litecoins with Ethereum. We will show some of the best exchanges you can use, and the pros and cons of using different types of exchanges over the other.
Cryptmixer is one of the most unique exchanges, and also one of the fastest ways to convert your ETH to LTC. With Cryptmixer you do not even need to store your money with the exchange, meaning you are at very little risk of getting your funds stolen. With Cryptmixer you simply specify the amount of LTC you want to buy, and specific the address to where your litecoins should be sent and within 30 minutes you will have LTC delivered to your wallet.
Poloniex is the world’s largest altcoin exchange. However, there is a huge downside to using Poloniex to convert your ETH to LTC: Poloniex does not have a LTC/ETH market, meaning you have to first trade your ETH to BTC, and then trade your BTC for LTC. While this method works, you will have to make multiple trades and also pay fees twice.
Shapeshift is basically the same as Cryptmixer, and was actually the first company to come up with the concept of an exchange that does not hold your own funds.
Frequently Asked Questions About Buying Litecoin
Many of you may still have lots of questions about how to buy Litecoin. Odds are we have answered almost any question you could think of below. We will aim to answer many of the most common questions relating to buying Litecoin.
Why are there limited options to buying Litecoin using other altcoins?
The issue in all crypto markets is liquidity. As the space gets bigger, the liquidity also gets better. But as of now, the only VERY liquid cryptocurrency is Bitcoin. So exchanging two altcoins between each other is often harder than if BTC was involved on one side of the trade.
How much is a Litecoin worth?
Like all currencies, the value of Litecoin changes every second. The value of Litecoin also depends on the country you are in and the exchange you are trading on. You can find the most up to date price on Coinbase.
How do I buy Ripple (XRP) with Litecoin?
The best way to buy Ripple using Litecoin is to either use a non KYC exchange like Cryptmixer or start an account on Binance or Coinbase Pro and sell your Litecoin for Ripple. Look for LTC/XRP trading pairs, and make your trade.
How long does Litecoin take to confirm?
Litecoin blocks are added ever 2 and a half minutes. That means you should get one confirmation every two and a half minutes. This can vary if it takes miners longer to discover a block, but the difficulty of the finding a block should change proportionate to the hashing power on the network so that a block gets added approximately every 2.5 minutes. If you are trying to send money to a merchant, they may require more than one confirmation before they send you products. If you are depositing on an exchange, they may also require three or more confirmations before they credit your account.
How many Litoshis make one Litecoin?
one hundred million (100,000,000) Litoshis make one (1) Litecoin.
Where do I store Litecoin?
The best place to store litecoin is on a hardware wallet. You can find the best one for you on our page dedicated to hardware wallets.
When is the Litecoin halving?
The expected date of the next Litecoin block reward halving is August 7th, 2023.
Why can litecoin take so long to buy?
Litecoin can take long to buy because the legacy banking system is very slow. If you are buying with another cryptocurrency, you will see how fast it is to buy! Bank transfer in the USA, for example, take about 5 days to complete. So any purchase of Litecoin made with a US bank transfer will take a minimum of 5 days.
How do I buy Litecoin with Paypal?
Unfortunately, there is no easy way to buy Litcoin with PayPal. Other sites will tell you that cex allows for this, but that is no longer the case. You can, however, now use eToro to buy Litcoineum, unless you live in the United States. If you live in the US, the only way to buy Litcoin with Paypal is to buy Bitcoin using paypal, and then use the Bitcoins to buy Litcoin. You can easily buy Bitcoin using Paypal on Local Bitcoins. Once you have Bitcoin, you can use an exchange like Cryptmixer to swap the Bitcoin for Litcoin.
Can you buy partial litecoins?
Yes, litecoin, like Bitcoin, is divisible to many decimal places so you can buy 0.1 LTC, 0.001 LTC, etc.
Can you sell litecoin?
Yes, you can sell LTC on most of the exchanges mentioned above. The fees, speed, and privacy is the same in most cases.
Can anyone buy litecoins?
Anyone is free to buy litecoins, as long as you find an exchange that supports your country. Most cryptocurrency wallets do not require ID to sign up so you can always make a wallet and get paid in litecoin, too.
Which payment method is best to use?
For speed, credit card will likely be fastest. For larger amounts, bank transfer is best. For privacy, it’s best to buy bitcoins with cash and then trade for litecoins using Cryptmixer or Shapeshift.
Is it better to mine or buy litecoins?
If you have cheap electricity, it might be worth it to mine litecoins. If you have solar power or just want to mine for fun then it could be worth it. Otherwise, it’s probably better just to buy. Mining is constantly changing and small changes in Litecoin price or electricity can greatly affect your profitability.
What should I do with my litecoins once I buy?
You should immediately move your litecoins into a secure wallet. You should never leave your litecoins on an exchange. There have been countless hacks in cryptocurrency since Bitcoin was created in 2009. Hundreds of thousands of people have lost money. So buy your litecoins, and then instantly send them into a wallet you control so you are not at risk of losing money to a hack or scam.
Link to our website:https://block.co/block-co-thriving-by-working-togethe This year brought a lot of difficulties to most of the people around the globe. Together with that, in 2020 many companies and businesses were hit by the crisis, from the small entrepreneurs to the leaders of the global market. We had to learn and innovate to adjust and thrive in the new ways of working, collaborating, and communicating. The Coronavirus pandemic gave us many valuable lessons to learn, but most importantly – we understood that only by working together we can overcome global issues. As most companies, at Block.co, we had to adapt to the disruptive changes dictated by the lockdown measures. But we managed to get through by focusing on what we can do best and offering our help to institutions that would benefit from our solution in times of crisis. Together with that, we took time to support our community and educate people on Blockchain Technology, its potential and upcoming trends, through our free webcasts, which received amazing feedback and gathered people from over50 countries around the world! Our efforts paid off, and in the first 7 months of this year, Block.co issued more than 25,000 documents on one of the most robust blockchains – Bitcoin. https://preview.redd.it/o2cyhq9c6cf51.png?width=1920&format=png&auto=webp&s=e76bd83db47179fc1f39dc04e29da068d14ec8cc As an innovative organization at the early stage of industry development, we are thankful to each and every one of our partners from both the private and public sectors. Being at the forefront of the blockchain industry we understand our responsibility to continuouslyimprove our solution and keep up with the latest technology trends to offer the best solution to our customers. Block.co’s mission is to eliminate document fraud everywhere, by transforming the way institutions manage digital records. Our platform is easy to use, as both the issuer and the validator will not need to understand blockchain technology. Our solution uses a very simple drag-and-drop method. Moreover, it is highly secure, as we store all the information on Bitcoin’s blockchain. Our clients can be sure that their PDFs will be 100% tamper-proof. Finally, our product is based on verifiable PDFs meaning that there is no limit regarding the number of issued documents per batch. If you want to learn more about our solution watch our Platform Walk-Through Video. Thank you for trusting Block.co and choosing us as your solution provider! We value your support and engagement and will continue delivering our best work for you. Stay tuned with us. More updates coming soon! https://preview.redd.it/6turv6gf6cf51.png?width=1920&format=png&auto=webp&s=140922cbb35dfaf51caae1fc86d0af96906e513d For more info, contactBlock.codirectly or email at [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]). Tel +357 70007828 Get the latest from Block.co, like and follow us on social media: ✔️Facebook ✔️LinkedIn ✔️Twitter ✔️YouTube ✔️Medium ✔️Instagram ✔️Telegram ✔️Reddit ✔️GitHub
https://preview.redd.it/crbhgda6c0651.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=522357d06b1f3c893f996dbd3b79aab5461e4dfb Blockchain has been described as an omnipotent technology since its inception. It is expected to affect all walks of life and even reshape production relations. However, blockchain itself has a technical bottleneck called "Impossible Triangle", which is still far from its potential. The so-called "Impossible Triangle" of blockchain, also known as the "ternary paradox", means that no matter which consensus mechanism is adopted by blockchain network to determine the generation mode of new blocks, it cannot take into account the three requirements of throughput, security and decentralization at the same time. For example, bitcoin can theoretically guarantee security and decentralization on the basis of large amount of computing power. But the disadvantage is that it is difficult to improve throughput, slow speed and high cost. EOS, which is said to take improving throughput as an important technological breakthrough, adopts the consensus mechanism of dpos, greatly reducing the number of nodes and being criticized for sacrificing the essence of decentralization. Although the "king of ten thousand chains" Ethereum has the partition technology as the solution of capacity expansion, it can't fall down because of the technical difficulty. Forbes uses "zero knowledge proof" technology, greatly improves throughput without sacrificing decentralization, and solves the "Impossible Triangle" problem that has plagued the blockchain industry for many years. 1、 Zero knowledge proof First, we introduce the concept of lower zero knowledge proof. Zero knowledge proof, as the name implies, is not only to fully prove that they are the legitimate owners of certain rights and interests, but also not to disclose relevant information - that is to say, the "knowledge" to the outside world is "zero". The certifier proves to the verifier and makes him believe that he knows or has some information, but the proving process cannot disclose any information to the verifier. Case 1: a wants to prove to B that he has the key of a room. Suppose that the room can only open the lock with the key, and no other method can open it. There are two ways: ① A shows the key to B, and B uses the key to open the lock of the room, so as to prove that a has the correct key of the room. ② B. make sure that there is an object in the room. A opens the door of the room with his own key, and then takes the object out and shows it to B, so as to prove that he does have the key of the room. The second method belongs to zero knowledge proof. Its advantage is that in the whole process of proof, B can never see the appearance of the key, thus avoiding the leakage of the key. Case 2: there is a circular corridor. The exit and the entrance are the same, but there is a door that can only be opened with a key somewhere in the middle of the corridor. A needs to prove to B that he has the key to the door. With zero knowledge proof, B looks at a entering the corridor from the entrance and then going out of the corridor from the exit. At this time, B does not get any information about the key, but it can completely prove that a has the key. https://preview.redd.it/psbzg9ylc0651.png?width=571&format=png&auto=webp&s=6d58835a211e4d391112cf39720f4aaecda869f6 A large number of facts prove that zero knowledge proof is very useful in cryptography. If zero knowledge proof can be used for verification, many problems will be solved effectively. So how does Forbes use zero knowledge proof to improve TPS? 2、 Second floor expansion It is difficult to solve the "Impossible Triangle" problem if you directly modify the blockchain architecture itself to improve the throughput. After all, the more nodes, it is very difficult to improve the TPS technology on the premise of decentralization. But Forbes thought of the "curve saving the nation" scheme, that is, without changing the blockchain itself, to improve the TPS by setting the second layer architecture. Here is a case in life: If the Forbes public chain is regarded as a real-life bank, and the transfer operation is carried out on the Forbes public chain, it is like handling the transfer business in the bank's counter, but the difference is that the bank is centralized and the blockchain is decentralized. In the case of few people, it's easy for users to handle the transfer business in the bank, but once there are more people, it's easy to form a long queue, which makes the users in the back have a long wait. Blockchain is like a bank. When there are more people in the transfer queue, there will be a block. So to improve the throughput of blockchain is how to improve the speed of bank transfer business. But the bank is so big. There are so many bank staff (you can compare the bank staff to the nodes of the blockchain). It is very difficult for the bank to improve the speed of handling the transfer business. This makes the people behind the line angry, but they have no choice. https://preview.redd.it/euxut33zc0651.png?width=658&format=png&auto=webp&s=899292e272be66b1ead3113db0d21fd9d8985dca Finally, one of the people at the back of the line couldn't bear to wait. He stood up and said, "we can't wait. We have to find ways to improve our efficiency." And they said to him, you are not a banker. What can you do. So, the man said confidently, "let's see my operation and cooperate with me.". Only the person pulls out a book for bookkeeping, starts from the fifth person in line, records the balance of each person's account after transfer in detail, and then asks each person to confirm that the note book is authorized by hand print. Then after the last person records, he gets an account book for recording the final balance of the owner's account. Although there is no specific transfer record in this account book, it is recorded accurately Record the balance of each person's transfer. Although some people transfer to each other many times, no matter how many times they transfer, people only care about the balance of their final account After that person's statistics, just in time, the fourth person in line finished the transfer at the bank. Then he walked into the bank with this account book and said that this was the account balance after the fifth person started the transfer of all the people. The bank only needs to change the account balance of these people in the system. At the first sight of the bank, it's not easy. The staff swiped it and changed all the balances of these accounts at once, so that the bank's handling of transfer business increased by several hundred times. This is how Forbes is implemented. By setting the second level node, which is called relay, let relay collect the account transfer information of queued users and verify the user's signature. After calculation, integrate the token balance information of the final address into the Merkel tree and submit it to the chain, and then process it at one time. We call this method of improving the block chain TPS "the second layer expansion". At first glance, this scheme is perfect, but there are various problems in practical operation. For example:
How can the bank believe that the person with the final account book actually counts the transfer requests of all the queuers?
What if this person, because of personal grudges, intentionally misses the statistics for those who don't like it?
What if this person secretly changes the account balance on the way to the bank?
At this time, zero knowledge proof will be of great use. https://preview.redd.it/25p5vrb9d0651.png?width=599&format=png&auto=webp&s=9d07cb226d1f6f318703c76c5f4d9000b370145a 3、 Zero knowledge proof + second layer expansion + smart contract To solve the above problems is actually to solve the problem of trust. The bank is not stupid. It's OK to let the bank send its own staff. Each staff sent by the bank will issue a "work permit" and an open box with a lock before departure. When you count transfers for people in line, the account book is safe, because people will supervise him. When you count the last person, the staff will put the account book into a locked box and close it. In this way, on the way to the bank, the staff can't do evil and modify the account data. After arriving at the bank, the bank only recognizes the "work permit" and confirms that it is its own staff. Without opening the locked box, it can be determined that this person is indeed trustworthy. It can be seen that in the whole process, the bank gets ZERO account information, but believes that the transfer data counted by this person is safe and reliable, which is zero knowledge proof. The principle of Forbes technology is exactly the same. The main chain will use the zero knowledge circuit to generate the certificate called proof. When relay counts the transfer information of users, it will finally package and submit the general ledger Merkel tree, and use proof to encrypt. After the main chain sees the encrypted package, it will use proof to decrypt, perform the calculation of modifying the address token balance, and then broadcast to the whole node. But there is still a problem that hasn't been solved, that is, what should staff do if they intentionally miss the bookkeeping of people who don't look good? Or the staff ask for a tip from the user. If they don't tip, they don't charge. What should we do? In fact, it's also easy to handle. People who miss the account or are asked for tips will definitely complain to the bank angrily. After the bank checks, they only need to deduct the balance of the staff's account. Here Forbes will arrange smart contracts on the main chain, and require the added relay to mortgage a sufficient number of GFS on the main chain. If relay misses the user transfer request or intentionally increases the transfer fee, the main chain will deduct the pledge GFS of relay through the smart contract to compensate the user's loss. See here, congratulations on finally understanding the technical solution of Forbes to improve TPS. Under the support of huge distributed mining pool, Forbes not only has a large number of nodes to provide ultra-high security and decentralization, but also uses zero knowledge proof + second expansion + smart contract to easily increase TPS to more than 10000, which solves the "Impossible Triangle" problem of blockchain. I think you must have noticed the details of the pledge of GFS by relay. If smart people don't explain, they can predict the future value of GFS from the details.
Bitcoin is the most censorship resistant money in the world.
You don't have to buy a “whole” bitcoin so don't freak out if you look at the price. You can buy a piece of one no problem.
The Dallas Mavericks accept Bitcoin on their website. You don't trust Mark Cuban. He's the best shark.
Bitcoin is the best performing asset of the last decade (better than S&P500).
Diversify your current portfolio.
It's not illegal in the USA.
You holding just one satoshi slightly limits the supply and can rise the price for everyone else.
[In late 2019] hash rate is the highest it has ever been
Suicide insurance; if Bitcoin rises in price there is no worse feeling than regret.
Some of the smartest people in computer science and cryptography are working on it. Trust nerds.
Look at the all time historical chart. No technical analysis just tell me what you think when you look at it.
Money is a belief system... and I want to believe.
Transparent ledger, no funny business going on it's easy to audit.
Elon Musk appears to be a fan. How's that for an appeal to authority
There is a fixed limit in the number of bitcoins that will exist. 21 million bitcoin, 7 billion people on earth. Do the math.
There are so many examples of governments inflating their currency to the point where it becomes unusable. Read the wikipedia page for Venezuela or Zimbabwe.
Altcoins make sacrifices in either security or centralization. There are altcoins out there that claim to be innovating but just check the scoreboard nothing has flipped Bitcoin in market value or even gotten close.
With technology developing at a rate faster than law, governments and for-profit businesses have the ability to monitor our purchases, location, our habits, and all of this has happened without consent. People made jokes and conspiracy theory, but sometimes conspiracy is real. Most people are good, but there is absolutely evil out there. There are absolutely evil people in positions of power. There are absolutely evil people that work together in positions of power. Does anyone actually believe that Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide. Go read about Leslie Wexner. Go read the cypherpunk manifesto.
The upcoming halvening in 2020 will reduce the number of Bitcoin created in each block, making them more scarce, and if history repeats more valuable.
Bitcoin has lower fees than traditional banking.
Gold has the advantage of being a physical thing. But unlike gold you know Bitcoin is not forged, or mixed with another metal, and you can easily break it into tiny pieces and send it over the internet to someone.
Bitcoin could spark new interests maybe you start to read more into economics, computer science, or Brock Pierce.
Bitcoin has survived with no leader, marketing team, public relations, or legal team.
Because Wired magazine said Bitcoin was dead at $2, Forbes said it was dead at $15, NY Times at $208, and CNN at $333.
Just do a cost benefit analysis. What happens if Bitcoin fails and it goes to zero vs. what happens if it succeeds, and becomes world money.
Bitcoin encourages long term thinking, planning, saving. Due to inflation we are punished by holding on to cash. Look up the statistics on the average savings account while we are bombarded with consumerist bullshit like Funko pop heads, Loot crate subscription services, and new syrup flavors for coffee. Currently we are encouraged to spend now, seek immediate gratification, and ignore what we are becoming as Amazon picks out our clothes and toothpaste ships it to the house and we sit and watch streaming services where content is pushed to us and I'm supposed to buy that this garbage is actually “trending”. Our lives have become so comfortable that idiots spend $60 to escape a room and have someone take your picture when you get out. What would our ancestors think.
Maybe you're a day trader looking to use a trading bot in an unregulated market.
Bitcoin has 7 letters in it. Lucky number 7.....
Bitcoin promises to bank the unbanked, and provide services to those not otherwise “qualified” to open a bank account.
It's just cool, don't you want to seem smart to all your friends.
The origin story is so nuts there's going to be a movie or several movies about the early days of Bitcoin. Satoshi Nakamoto remains anonymous to this day. Imagine if the inventor of the cell phone was anonymous.
If you have money to burn, don't buy soda, weed, or some girls private snapchat it's a dead end put it towards Bitcoin and give it to your child in the future.
To avoid getting ripped off by foreign exchange fees just because you were born one place and your friends were born in another place.
Can't live off the grid in your log cabin and still use Mastercard. Bitcoin is one piece of opting out.
If one country adopts BTC as the national currency, it doesn't take much thought to realise that others will follow.
Join a welcoming and unique community. Everyone is super nice because they want your money.
You can stick it to the baby boomers.
You can stick it to the vegans.
You can stick it Roger Ver.
Maybe your IQ is 70 and you'll do whatever CNBC Fast Money recommends.
Maybe a hacker infects your computer, records you doing that thing, and threatens to release the tape if you do not pay them 1.5 Bitcoin.
You're a risk taker looking for some risky investment.
Aliens attack like Independence Day, blow up major cities in major countries, your money is still safe with Bitcoin. As long as there is a some guy, some person, living on an island with a copy of the ledger out there on your'e good. We're all good.
Many proposals to scale the number of transactions, may the best plan win.
One day you might have to use BTC to pay taxes, buy food, and charge your Tesla.
You want to support a political group and remain private.
You can trust math more than you can trust people to set an emission rate.
Government don't know how much you have.
The first response to Bitcoin being published by Hal Finney stated that Bitcoin was positioned to reach million dollar valuation. Hal was the first bull and passed away in 2014, missing a lot #doitforHal.
Baddies can't freeze your money if they mad at you.
The Big Bang Theory mentioned it, maybe you want to be like Sheldon the bazinga guy.
Be contrarian. In a world where everyone zigs it's sometimes good to zag.
Don't have any hobbies, and you just need a reason to get up in the morning.
Enjoy learning? Bitcoin is a topic where there is so much to learn, and so much development, that it really becomes a never ending journey. For someone who likes learning, it's more productive than speedrunning a video game.
Yolo. You only live once. This isn't a dress rehearsal, if there's something your kind of interested in pursue it. That's true for anything not just Bitcoin. But if you're reading this I'm assuming you're interested.
Bitcoin is not a ponzi scheme. The difference is Bitcoin does not need new people buying in to work, blocks being added will continue even if the community stopped growing.
With religion on the decline maybe you want to join a cult. Crypto twitter is a great echo chamber to meet like minded people.
Satoshi Nakamoto found a way to distribute a global currency in a fair way with the ability to adjust the mining difficulty as we go, it's really incredible. You still need computers and electricity to mine new bitcoin today but it's an extremely fair way for people to earn. There was no premine of Bitcoin. Everyone who has Bitcoin either bought it at what the market said, or they earned it.
No CEO in charge of Bitcoin to make bad decisions or a board of directors that can make changes. The users, an ever growing number, are in charge.
Bitcoin has no days off, it has no workers in charge who can get sick or take a holiday.
Bitcoin has survived 10 years (and more). While there will always be dangers, I'd argue that those first few years it was most vulnerable to fail.
Have some trust in the cypherpunks. Anyone who held and didn't sell bitcoin as it went from pennies to five figures is not looking to get rich. They want to change the world.
Potential president Tulsi Gabbard disclosed owning some.
Digital money is the future, anyone who has tried Venmo can see that. Well Bitcoin is a digitally native asset.
Refugees can use Bitcoin to store their wealth as they flee a failing country.
Bitcoin is an open source project. Anthony Pompliano likes to call it a virus but I like how the author of the Bitcoin Standard describes it. Bitcoin is like a song. As long as one person remembers it you can't destroy a song.
Triple entry accounting. When humans first started recording who owes who what we had single-entry accounting. The king's little brother would keep everything written down, but we had to really trust this guy because he could simply erase a line and that money would be gone. When double-entry accounting started to spread 500 years ago it brought with it massive innovation. Businesses could now form relationships across the ocean as they each kept a record. We did not have innovation again until Satoshi's Bitcoin, where blockchain can be used as the neutral third party to keep record. It might not sound important but blockchain allows us to agree upon an objective reality.
Bitcoin is non-political.
Bitcoin is easy to accept. I mean kind of. It's certainly easier than setting up a bank account.
A sandwich used to cost 10 cents in America, I walk into Subway and they don't even have $5 foot longs anymore. Inflation man..
It's a peaceful protest.
Critics say that mining wastes electricity, but if Bitcoin adoption continues the world will actually be incentivized to produce more renewable energy. There are so many waterfalls and sources of energy in the middle of nowhere right now. People might not see a reason to build a power plant over there now, but in the future it can make business sense. Take that waterfall mine bitcoin, and sell them to the people who can't mine. It allows for a business to sell their energy anywhere.
Get into debates around Bitcoin, build those critical thinking skills.
“Predicting rain doesn't count, building arks does”
“The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago, the second best time is now.”
"I never considered for one second having anything to do with it. I detested it the moment it was raised. It’s just disgusting. Bitcoin is noxious poison.”
The immaculate conception. No cryptocurrency can have a start the grassroots way Bitcoin did, it's just impossible given how the space has changed.
There are more than 1000x more U.S. dollars today than there were a hundred years ago.
Bitcoin is the largest transfer of wealth this decade from the least curious to the curious.
The concept of the Star Wars Cantina, Galt's Gulch, or young Beat Generation kids sitting in a basement smoking cigarettes and questioning the world can only exist if money remains fungible.
You can send money to your Dad even if he lives in a country run by bad boys.
Memorize your key, and walk around the world carrying your money in your head.
The Federal Reserve is objectively way too powerful.
John Mcafe promised that if bitcoins were not valued at 1 million dollars by the end of 2020 he would eat his own penis on national television. It will be a sad day if we don't hit that 1 million.
The Apple credit card.
If we ever get artificial intelligence it'll be able to interact with Bitcoin.
Katy Perry is aware of crypto so if by some chance you run into her, you get one chance to strike up conversation, so here's your chance to shine. You don't ask for a picture, you don't say she's pretty, or name your favorite song. Take your shot and ask about what type of cold storage she uses for her bitcoin.
Many people are afraid of a world currency because it's associated with a centralized world power taking control. Bitcoin allows for neutral world money.
I've posted this message on another thread where it was quickly drowned in the usual Roxanne rants of people seemingly playing this game while finding it terrible and comparing it to work. Then reflecting on my own experience, I realized that with the last days of FMA, people are throwing their last strenght to try to clear the 3 dreaded FMA EX+ mission. Having been on the verge of giving up more than once and being increasing frustrated by not being able to reproduce the videos of better players than me, I wanted to share my experience and maybe give you give a last piece of motivation to make it. Videos are absolutly great to give you a headstart, but it didn't help me a lot because 1/you never have exactly the same setup as players 2/even when doing it with F2P units, the gear is usually top notch because those players have been collecting it for so long, and the units are often lvl80+ which is also the mark of veterans. As an addition, time is precious and all those videos last 30 min and I find it very difficult to understand the underlying strategy because unless you watch and analyse everything (which requires a very good knowledge of the game that I don't have) which takes ages, it's easy to miss the "key" moment when the strategy succeeds. What I needed was a few key principles to make it through the map, saving me time while giving me the opportunity and pride (and a weebit of wrath) to tune my own roster and find my own solution. Having tried all those levels for 20 hours total, I wanted to share my findings. CONTEXT & ASSUMPTIONS I've been playing for less than 2 months (6 days remaining on my pact). I am a moderate whale / heavy dolphin (spent 220€ so far) mostly because i'm 40 with kids and a correct salary and I'm ready to arbitrate time vs money. Also I have an obsessive personality and love making short, middle and long-term strategies which makes me, I believe, a good project manager as well as a perfect target for freemium games. So I'm not giving any lessons here, in a way I bought my way to victory although I'm still trying to limit my expenses to avoid killing the fun, and still give me a sense of accomplishment by optimizing the money I pour in the game (I typically try to convert mentally every resource in the game : equipment, gold, shards etc. in equivalent gem to make sure I don't waste IRL money). TAC is certainly putting up a paywall and I can understand part of the rant, however having worked in startup ecosystems for a short while, we all know that most SaaS business models today consist in acquiring users with freebies THEN monetize community, without alienating them. Which is what TAC is experimenting right now, with various success, even if I am actually quite happy with the one year anniversary (I seem to be the only one though). I genuinely cannot understand people who have been playing TAC for thousands of hours by paying nothing or 10 months of pact (which is roughly the cost of any new game on PS4), and then complain about Gumi slightly altering their monetization model. Or rather, I can understand the human mechanism behind that (what we call in french "on ne revient pas sur les avantages acquis") but it feels a bit unfair. Anyway, let's come back to the topic. So...220€ bought me a Laharl 76 (reroll unit), Uzuma 75 (3 steps free gems guaranteed), Roxanne 75 (9 steps using selector + 50 shards), Edward 74 (3 steps paid gems guaranteed) + Eve 80 (7 steps anniversary banner) + Miuna/Kudanstein 70 each (3 steps free gems guaranteed). Obviously I have most free SS staples but only a few of them at 75+ since I farmed HQ from day one : Shayna, Vettel, Magnus, Reagan, Anastasia. Most of them don't even have thei lvl80 MA. I farmed their gear to gold whenever I could, and they only gear I bought are Prinny'sword & Envy's Mark, which I didn't use. I don't have any limited item such as Takiyaki. I'm playing around 3 hours each day, with various attention level depending on task at hand : from barely looking at it (HQ farming) to extreme attention (EX+). Unless specified, all my units are JM3 maxed with enhanced equipment and max skill levels, but I guess this is the case for most of you. I was aiming at getting my free FMA ticket, although I specifically went for Fullmetal EX+ green shards (no death + wind team only). I think Pride & Wrath EX+ is doable for my thunder units but clearing those left me exhausted and I want to catchup with the other events (veda, pirate & co) so I'm skipping it, especially since all my best thunder units are farmable (teona, magnus, fujika, aruba etc.). So I can't give any advanced tips, I just hope my "just-clear" walkthrough will enable recent players like me to get the ticket (got Bradley btw, too bad I disassembled his gear by error :D). Also, I think those stage tremendously increased my knowledge of the game mechanism. For convenience purpose I've also linked to the main tipcs & videos given by the famous veteran players who paved the way for the other players. Obviously difficulty grade is personal and subjective, I'm just an average player although I play TAC as I would play any other console/PC game : for me it's a full fledged SRPG. I've owned almost every PC/Console since the end of the eighties, having completed say 90% of any top 100 games list out there. I recon mobile gaming has progressed a lot since those few years and numerous acquisition of mobile gaming companies by lead studios everywhere show that even if "legacy hardcore gamers" still sneer at mobile gamers, the distinction will soon be obsolete : that's indeed where the money is, under the "game as a service" form. FULLMETAL EX+ Time to clear : 30 to 40 tries (5 hours) just to clear the level. Once I got the hang of it, the no death / wind only milestones took me only a couple of tries, making the success repeatable. Difficulty level : 4 on a scale of 1 (easy) to 5 (Ornstein & Smough) Frustration level : 3 on a scale of 1 (predictable) to 5 (trying to earn a living by trading high frequency bitcoin) Key principles :
Priority 1 : Left HB will one shot any of your character, unless you evade (Hayate & Bradley perfect evade), Revive (Guts skill from tanks), Kill him first with high AGI HB (Quickened Yomi), or block his way (Edward). After several tries, I used edward to create a block at the top of the initial stairs on the left, charge Laharl, then when the block is destroyed, laharl proceeds to one-short the HB with a regular attack enabling him to get jewels. I found that blinking Uzuma on the ledge from the bottom prevents the units on the ramp to be delayed, but deprives you from 35 precious jewels so ultimately I found it better to have to delayed Uzuma with full jewels instead.
Priority 2 & 3 : You only have a few turns to kill Waginau, before he silences your team and then you're basically fucked. Waginau can be killed in 2 or 3 magical shots, ideally using Uzuma or Roy, because Pyrokinesis can also take out green Mandragora which is one of the biggest damage dealer on the map. Null grenade from Roxanne might give you a respite because he doesn't have jewel regen.
Priority 4 : clear-up vermins/remaining mandragoras/archers at the top of the stairs (that's usually where you can get the 4+ dead enemies milestones), while managing your health with potions and preparing for the arrival of 2 red mean HB. Uzumas can tank quite well but after a while they'll need a refresh. After Laharl AGI 141 killed the wind HB, he has basically 2 turns and then I charge-up. The 2 red HB appear and he can AoE bringing them to a couple of a few life points, making them easy to kill with any of your units around. If you got the timing bad, Uzuma can blast them with water spells from the ledge of the upper terrace where the bulk of the fight usually takes place.
Additional tip 1 : Kinetic glove with MA is actually awesome here, giving you an added move while increasing slightly your available jewels during turn 2 and 3. Well worth the 100 gold shards for long maps.
Additional tip 2 : You can basically kite the bottom robot + chronomancer by moving back and forth, effectively neutralising them for a few turns. I found Edward and green HB to be very efficients at tanking the robot.
FLAME & HAWK EX+ Time to clear : 80 to 100 tries (12 hours) just to clear the level. It nearly broke me. Although during my last run I had only 1 death (Reagan) that could have been avoided, It's not worth 10 platinum for me. Difficulty level : 5 on a scale of 1 to 5 Frustration level : 5 on a scale of 1 to 5 (very RNG dependant due to Charm / Paralysis effects => don't hesitate to kill your app and restart to get your used items back) Key principles :
Priority 1 : units 4 and 5 (Merc) NEED >140 AGI to leave Waginau aggroing zone. Play around positionning them but by leaving them on the small ledge, there's actually a configuration that will pull Edward and 2x vermins on the right side of the map, exposing them to Laharl AoE which, if preceeded by any AoE hit, will kill them all. Trade-off is that one vermin will come at you at the top side of the map, trying to charm you. If it happens, you WILL lose too many turns so retreat and restart. It happens roughly 50% of the time. Both Laharls should charge up first thing.
Priority 2 : Shoot the 2 robots ASAP with defense ignoring skills, like Samurai (Vettel) Machinist (Roxanne, Magnus) or Sniper (Reagan). After playing around with 2 roxanne machinists, she's too squishy so I went with only 1 Roxanne machinist + 2 Laharls as leaders/mercs (positioned like that : Laharl - Reagan - Roxanne - Chihaya - Laharl merc). I found that keeping the top left robot alive for a few turns actually enables you to build up jewels until AJ7000 comes around. Just spread your characters to avoid being paralyzed.
Priority 3 : Be ready to one-shot AJ7000 before he does that to you. Some do it with HB (charged up Shayna or Eve) but that requires a very specific jewels build up. I generaly found it easier to do it with Laharl + a couple elixirs if needed. You might need to be aware of CT mechanisms (credits : VicariousEXP), because when you see the black mage about to launch PATK shield, it's better to heal or do nothing to act early during your next action. If you are a bit late and need to sacrify a character, at least spread them out to avoid AJ7000 deadly AoE. Imho this is the hardest phase because timing is so difficult to get. But it's also the most rewarding phase.
Priority 4 : Bradley is a walk in the park, just freeze him with your mexican army of chronomancers. To freeze him you can AT LAST leave Waginau safe zone.
Priority 5 : THEN you freeze Waginau. Then you destroy Bradley & Waginau with anything alive on your side. I think that when they are frozen you can basically kill them with 100% hit rate.
Additional tip 5 : if you go the Roxanne machinist way, booster +2 and all-natural talents still gives 150+ AGI, she can first destroy the robot and possibly charm the archer, AND then use a tezla grenade to stun edward & 2 vermins coming from the right side which also destroys PATK shield, after which charged-up laharl can one-shot them wih Overlord.
Additional tip 6 : You need lots of chronomancers for the last phase of the combat. That's why my subs where HB with chronomancer sub. Reagan is awesome here, capable to kill the robot THEN daze/bind archers (very useful to catch up when you feel behind) THEN freeze Bradley/Waginau.
Additional tip 7 : Chihaya helps a lot. She can dance early, she can freeze & hit late, and she can reasonably tank if needed. Awesome.
PRIDE & WRATH EX+ Time to clear : 2 tries (30 min) just to clear the level. After the previous level, you understanding of the game has increased dramatically. You can pact/pat yourself until end of time and stomp anything that comes your way Difficulty level : 2 on a scale of 1 to 5 (at the level of "regular" EX+ levels) Frustration level : 2 on a scale of 1 to 5 Key principles :
Priority 1 : Try to make your way to Roy/Demon/Rita/Alphonse and charge-up AoE effect asap (Laharl, Setsuna, Noctis, Othima, lost of units will work). Actually the most difficult on the map is to manage to pass through the popping rabbits.
Priority 2 : On the right side I used an Uzuma which can easily kill Bradley, step on the blue circle and join the rest of the group. I think any HB or tanky units will do.
Honestly bring your best units and let the carnage begin, to evacuate frustration from the previous level.
Additional tip 1 : Demon & Alphonse will likely remain last and have a truckload of HP. I managed to solo both of them with Eve as long as you accumulate enough jewels + strong potions. So make sure you include them in your earliest nukes.
Additional tip 2 : interesting videos for dark only team and thunder only team, making use of tanky merchant Aruba. Didn't help me a lot though, as I just plowed through with Laharl - Roxanne - Lofia - Uzuma - Laharl merc.
That's it ! I wish the best luck in that memorable challenge ! Please share your tips for the brave players who will attempt the challenge in the last days of the collab...may the force be with you ! PS : also I want to thank all of you guys, you make half of my pleasure playing this game. Common Gumi, throw what you can at us, there's nothing the Reddit community can't beat !
An extensive guide for cashing out bitcoin and cryptocurrencies into private banks
Hey guys. Merry Xmas ! I am coming back to you with a follow up post, as I have helped many people cash out this year and I have streamlined the process. After my original post, I received many requests to be more specific and provide more details. I thought that after the amazing rally we have been attending over the last few months, and the volatility of the last few days, it would be interesting to revisit more extensively. The attitude of banks around crypto is changing slowly, but it is still a tough stance. For the first partial cash out I operated around a year ago for a client, it took me months to find a bank. They wouldn’t want to even consider the case and we had to knock at each and every door. Despite all my contacts it was very difficult back in the days. This has changed now, and banks have started to open their doors, but there is a process, a set of best practices and codes one has to follow. I often get requests from crypto guys who are very privacy-oriented, and it takes me months to have them understand that I am bound by Swiss law on banking secrecy, and I am their ally in this onboarding process. It’s funny how I have to convince people that banks are legit, while on the other side, banks ask me to show that crypto millionaires are legit. I have a solid background in both banking and in crypto so I manage to make the bridge, but yeah sometimes it is tough to reconcile the two worlds. I am a crypto enthusiast myself and I can say that after years of work in the banking industry I have grown disillusioned towards banks as well, like many of you. Still an account in a Private bank is convenient and powerful. So let’s get started.
A. What is required to open an account in a Private bank when you made your fortune through crypto.
There are two different aspects to your onboarding in a Swiss Private bank, compliance-wise. *The origin of your crypto wealth *Your background (residence, citizenship and probity) These two aspects must be documented in-depth. How to document your crypto wealth. Each new crypto millionaire has a different story. I may detail a few fun stories later in this post, but at the end of the day, most of crypto rich I have met can be categorized within the following profiles: the miner, the early adopter, the trader, the corporate entity, the black market, the libertarian/OTC buyer. The real question is how you prove your wealth is legit. 1. Context around the original amount/investment Generally speaking, your first crypto purchase may not be documented. But the context around this acquisition can be. I have had many cases where the original amount was bought through Mtgox, and no proof of purchase could be provided, nor could be documented any Mtgox claim. That’s perfectly fine. At some point Mtgox amounted 70% of the bitcoin transactions globally, and people who bought there and managed to withdraw and keep hold of their bitcoins do not have any Mtgox claim. This is absolutely fine. However, if you can show me the record of a wire from your bank to Tisbane (Mtgox's parent company) it's a great way to start. Otherwise, what I am trying to document here is the following: I need context. If you made your first purchase by saving from summer jobs, show me a payroll. Even if it was USD 2k. If you acquired your first bitcoins from mining, show me the bills of your mining equipment from 2012 or if it was through a pool mine, give me your slushpool account ref for instance. If you were given bitcoin against a service you charged, show me an invoice. 2. Tracking your wealth until today and making sense of it. What I have been doing over the last few months was basically educating compliance officers. Thanks God, the blockchain is a global digital ledger! I have been telling my auditors and compliance officers they have the best tool at their disposal to lead a proper investigation. Whether you like it or not, your wealth can be tracked, from address to address. You may have thought all along this was a bad feature, but I am telling you, if you want to cash out, in the context of Private Banking onboarding, tracking your wealth through the block explorer is a boon. We can see the inflows, outflows. We can see the age behind an address. An early adopter who bought 1000 BTC in 2010, and let his bitcoin behind one address and held thus far is legit, whether or not he has a proof of purchase to show. That’s just common sense. My job is to explain that to the banks in a language they understand. Let’s have a look at a few examples and how to document the few profiles I mentioned earlier. The trader. I love traders. These are easy cases. I have a ton of respect for them. Being a trader myself in investment banks for a decade earlier in my career has taught me that controlling one’s emotions and having the discipline to impose oneself some proper risk management system is really really hard. Further, being able to avoid the exchange bankruptcy and hacks throughout crypto history is outstanding. It shows real survival instinct, or just plain blissed ignorance. In any cases traders at exchange are easy cases to corroborate since their whole track record is potentially available. Some traders I have met have automated their trading and have shown me more than 500k trades done over the span of 4 years. Obviously in this kind of scenario I don’t show everything to the bank to avoid information overload, and prefer to do some snacking here and there. My strategy is to show the early trades, the most profitable ones, explain the trading strategy and (partially expose) the situation as of now with id pages of the exchanges and current balance. Many traders have become insensitive to the risk of parking their crypto at exchange as they want to be able to trade or to grasp an occasion any minute, so they generally do not secure a substantial portion on the blockchain which tends to make me very nervous. The early adopter. Provided that he has not mixed his coin, the early adopter or “hodler” is not a difficult case either. Who cares how you bought your first 10k btc if you bought them below 3$ ? Even if you do not have a purchase proof, I would generally manage to find ways. We just have to corroborate the original 30’000 USD investment in this case. I mainly focus on three things here: *proof of early adoption I have managed to educate some banks on a few evidences specifically related to crypto markets. For instance with me, an old bitcointalk account can serve as a proof of early adoption. Even an old reddit post from a few years ago where you say how much you despise this Ripple premined scam can prove to be a treasure readily available to show you were early. *story telling Compliance officers like to know when, why and how. They are human being looking for simple answers to simple questions and they don’t want like to be played fool. Telling the truth, even without a proof can do wonders, and even though bluffing might still work because banks don’t fully understand bitcoin yet, it is a risky strategy that is less and less likely to pay off as they are getting more sophisticated by the day. *micro transaction from an old address you control This is the killer feature. Send a $20 worth transaction from an old address to my company wallet and to one of my partner bank’s wallet and you are all set ! This is gold and considered a very solid piece of evidence. You can also do a microtransaction to your own wallet, but banks generally prefer transfer to their own wallet. Patience with them please. they are still learning. *signature message Why do a micro transaction when you can sign a message and avoid potentially tainting your coins ? *ICO millionaire Some clients made their wealth participating in ETH crowdsale or IOTA ICO. They were very easy to deal with obviously and the account opening was very smooth since we could evidence the GENESIS TxHash flow. The miner Not so easy to proof the wealth is legit in that case. Most early miners never took screenshot of the blocks on bitcoin core, nor did they note down the block number of each block they mined. Until the the Slashdot article from August 2010 anyone could mine on his laptop, let his computer run overnight and wake up to a freshly minted block containing 50 bitcoins back in the days. Not many people were structured enough to store and secure these coins, avoid malwares while syncing the blockchain continuously, let alone document the mined blocks in the process. What was 50 BTC worth really for the early miners ? dust of dollars, games and magic cards… Even miners post 2010 are generally difficult to deal with in terms of compliance onboarding. Many pool mining are long dead. Deepbit is down for instance and the founders are MIA. So my strategy to proof mining activity is as follow: *Focusing on IT background whenever possible. An IT background does help a lot to bring some substance to the fact you had the technical ability to operate a mining rig. *Showing mining equipment receipts. If you mined on your own you must have bought the hardware to do so. For instance mining equipment receipts from butterfly lab from 2012-2013 could help document your case. Similarly, high electricity bill from your household on a consistent basis back in the day could help. I have already unlocked a tricky case in the past with such documents when the bank was doubtful. *Wallet.dat files with block mining transactions from 2011 thereafter This obviously is a fantastic piece of evidence for both you and me if you have an old wallet and if you control an address that received original mined blocks, (even if the wallet is now empty). I will make sure compliance officers understand what it means, and as for the early adopter, you can prove your control over these wallet through a microtransaction. With these kind of addresses, I can show on the block explorer the mined block rewards hitting at regular time interval, and I can even spot when difficulty level increased or when halvening process happened. *Poolmining account. Here again I have educated my partner bank to understand that a slush account opened in 2013 or an OnionTip presence was enough to corroborate mining activity. The block explorer then helps me to do the bridge with your current wallet. *Describing your set up and putting it in context In the history of mining we had CPU, GPU, FPG and ASICs mining. I will describe your technical set up and explain why and how your set up was competitive at that time. The corporate entity Remember 2012 when we were all convinced bitcoin would take over the world, and soon everyone would pay his coffee in bitcoin? How naïve we were to think transaction fees would remain low forever. I don’t blame bitcoin cash supporters; I once shared this dream as well. Remember when we thought global adoption was right around the corner and some brick and mortar would soon accept bitcoin transaction as a common mean of payment? Well, some shop actually did accept payment and held. I had a few cases as such of shops holders, who made it to the multi million mark holding and had invoices or receipts to proof the transactions. If you are organized enough to keep a record for these trades and are willing to cooperate for the documentation, you are making your life easy. The digital advertising business is also a big market for the bitcoin industry, and affiliates partner compensated in btc are common. It is good to show an invoice, it is better to show a contract. If you do not have a contract (which is common since all advertising deals are about ticking a check box on the website to accept terms and conditions), there are ways around that. If you are in that case, pm me. The black market Sorry guys, I can’t do much for you officially. Not that I am judging you. I am a libertarian myself. It’s just already very difficult to onboard legit btc adopters, so the black market is a market I cannot afford to consider. My company is regulated so KYC and compliance are key for me if I want to stay in business. Behind each case I push forward I am risking the credibility and reputation I have built over the years. So I am sorry guys I am not risking it to make an extra buck. Your best hope is that crypto will eventually take over the world and you won’t need to cash out anyway. Or go find a Lithuanian bank that is light on compliance and cooperative. The OTC buyer and the libertarian. Generally a very difficult case. If you bought your stack during your journey in Japan 5 years ago to a guy you never met again; or if you accumulated on https://localbitcoins.com/ and kept no record or lost your account, it is going to be difficult. Not impossible but difficult. We will try to build a case with everything else we have, and I may be able to onboard you. However I am risking a lot here so I need to be 100% confident you are legit, before I defend you. Come & see me in Geneva, and we will talk. I will run forensic services like elliptic, chainalysis, or scorechain on an extract of your wallet. If this scan does not raise too many red flags, then maybe we can work together ! If you mixed your coins all along your crypto history, and shredded your seeds because you were paranoid, or if you made your wealth mining professionally monero over the last 3 years but never opened an account at an exchange. ¯_(ツ)_/¯ I am not a magician and don’t get me wrong, I love monero, it’s not the point. Cashing out ICOs Private companies or foundations who have ran an ICO generally have a very hard time opening a bank account. The few banks that accept such projects would generally look at 4 criteria: *Seriousness of the project Extensive study of the whitepaper to limit the reputation risk *AML of the onboarding process ICOs 1.0 have no chance basically if a background check of the investors has not been conducted *Structure of the moral entity List of signatories, certificate of incumbency, work contract, premises... *Fiscal conformity Did the company informed the authorities and seek a fiscal ruling.
B. The tax issue I am not a tax specialist, but I can say that this year I have seen it all. Again I am not judging. You made $100m hodling, and still wouldn’t pay your taxes ? Your decision.I personally advise everyone to pay their taxes, but also to be generous, to give to charities. I mean you eventually made it. Good for you. What about you contribute to make the world a better place now? I will stop patronizing you. It’s just my 2cts, and it’s your money.
For the record, I am not into the tax avoidance business, so people come to me with a set up and I see if I can make it work within the legal framework imposed to me. First, stop thinking Switzerland is a “offshore heaven” Swiss banks have made deals with many governments for the exchange of fiscal information. If you are a French citizen, resident in France and want to open an account in a Private Bank in Switzerland to cash out your bitcoins, you will get slaughtered (>60%). There are ways around that, and I could refer you to good tax specialists for fiscal optimization, but I cannot organize it myself. It would be illegal for me. Swiss private banks makes it easy for you to keep a good your relation with your retail bank and continue paying your bills without headaches. They are integrated to SEPA, provide ebanking and credit cards. For information, these are the kind of set up some of my clients came up with. It’s all legal; obviously I do not onboard clients that are not tax compliant. Further disclaimer: I did not contribute myself to these set up. Do not ask me to organize it for you. I won’t. EU tricks Swiss lump sum taxation Foreign nationals resident in Switzerland can be taxed on a lump-sum basis if they are not gainfully employed in our country. Under the lump-sum tax regime, foreign nationals taking residence in Switzerland may choose to pay an expense-based tax instead of ordinary income and wealth tax. Attractive cantons for the lump sum taxation are Zug, Vaud, Valais, Grisons, Lucerne and Berne. To make it short, you will be paying somewhere between 200 and 400k a year and all expenses will be deductible. Switzerland has adopted a very friendly attitude towards crypto currency in general. There is a whole crypto valley in Zug now. 30% of ICOs are operated in Switzerland. The reason is that Switzerland has thrived for centuries on banking secrecy, and today with FATCA and exchange of fiscal info with EU, banking secrecy is dead. Regulators in Switzerland have understood that digital ledger technologies were a way to roll over this competitive advantage for the generations to come. Switzerland does not tax capital gains on crypto profits. The Finma has a very pragmatic approach. They have issued guidance- updated guidelines here. They let the business get organized and operate their analysis on a case per case basis. Only after getting a deep understanding of the market will they issue a global fintech license in 2019. This approach is much more realistic than legislations which try to regulate everything beforehand. Italy new tax exemption. It’s a brand new fiscal exemption. Go to Aoste, get residency and you could be taxed a 100k/year for 10years. Yes, really. Portugal What’s crazy in Europe is the lack of fiscal harmonization. Even if no one in Brussels dares admit it, every other country is doing fiscal dumping. Portugal is such a country and has proved very friendly fiscally speaking. I personally have a hard time trusting Europe. I have witnessed what happened in Greece over the last few years. Some of our ultra high net worth clients got stuck with capital controls. I mean no way you got out of crypto to have your funds confiscated at the next financial crisis! Anyway. FYI Malta Generally speaking, if you get a residence somewhere you have to live there for a certain period of time. Being stuck in Italy is no big deal with Schengen Agreement, but in Malta it is a different story. In Malta, the ordinary residence scheme is more attractive than the HNWI residence scheme. Being an individual, you can hold a residence permit under this scheme and pay zero income tax in Malta in a completely legal way. Monaco Not suitable for French citizens, but for other Ultra High Net worth individual, Monaco is worth considering. You need an account at a local bank as a proof of fortune, and this account generally has to be seeded with at least EUR500k. You also need a proof of residence. I do mean UHNI because if you don’t cash out minimum 30m it’s not interesting. Everything is expensive in Monaco. Real Estate is EUR 50k per square meter. A breakfast at Monte Carlo Bay hotel is 70 EUR. Monaco is sunny but sometimes it feels like a golden jail. Do you really want that for your kids? Dubaï
Set up a company in Dubaï, get your resident card.
Spend one day every 6 month there
Be tax free
US tricks Some Private banks in Geneva do have the license to manage the assets of US persons and U.S citizens. However, do not think it is a way to avoid paying taxes in the US. Opening an account at an authorized Swiss Private banks is literally the same tax-wise as opening an account at Fidelity or at Bank of America in the US. The only difference is that you will avoid all the horror stories. Horror stories are all real by the way. In Switzerland, if you build a decent case and answer all the questions and corroborate your case in depth, you will manage to convince compliance officers beforehand. When the money eventually hits your account, it is actually available and not frozen. The IRS and FATCA require to file FBAR if an offshore account is open. However FBAR is a reporting requirement and does not have taxes related to holding an account outside the US. The taxes would be the same if the account was in the US. However penalties for non compliance with FBAR are very large. The tax liability management is actually performed through the management of the assets ( for exemple by maximizing long term capital gains and minimizing short term gains). The case for Porto Rico. Full disclaimer here. I am not encouraging this. Have not collaborated on such tax avoidance schemes. if you are interested I strongly encourage you to seek a tax advisor and get a legal opinion. I am not responsible for anything written below. I am not going to say much because I am so afraid of uncle Sam that I prefer to humbly pass the hot potato to pwc From here all it takes is a good advisor and some creativity to be tax free on your crypto wealth if you are a US person apparently. Please, please please don’t ask me more. And read the disclaimer again. Trust tricks Generally speaking I do not accept fringe fiscal situation because it puts me in a difficult situation to the banks I work with, and it is already difficult enough to defend a legit crypto case. Trust might be a way to optimize your fiscal situation. Belize. Bahamas. Seychelles. Panama, You name it. At the end of the day, what matters for Swiss Banks are the beneficial owner and the settlor. Get a legal opinion, get it done, and when you eventually knock at a private bank’s door, don’t say it was for fiscal avoidance you stupid ! You will get the door smashed upon you. Be smarter. It will work. My advice is just to have it done by a great tax specialist lawyer, even if it costs you some money, as the entity itself needs to be structured in a professional way. Remember that with trust you are dispossessing yourself off your wealth. Not something to be taken lightly. “Anonymous” cash out. Right. I think I am not going into this topic, neither expose the ways to get it done. Pm me for details. I already feel a bit uncomfortable with all the info I have provided. I am just going to mention many people fear that crypto exchange might become reporting entities soon, and rightly so. This might happen anyday. You have been warned. FYI, this only works for non-US and large cash out. The difference between traders an investors. Danmark, Holland and Germany all make a huge difference if you are a passive investor or if you are a trader. ICO is considered investing for instance and is not taxed, while trading might be considered as income and charged aggressively. I would try my best to protect you and put a focus on your investor profile whenever possible, so you don't have to pay 52% tax if you do not have to :D
C. The cash out itself So you have accumulated patiently a good amount of wealth. For some of us who have been involved in crypto since 2010, it took years. Remember when BTC was stuck at 200$ for months? I personally feel like it was yesterday. There is no way you screw up your wealth by cashing out in a hurry or with low security standards. Here is how the cash out takes should place.
Full cash out or partial cash out? People who have been sitting on crypto for long have grown an emotional and irrational link with their coins. They come to me and say, look, I have 50m in crypto but I would like to cash out 500k only. So first let me tell you that as a wealth manager my advice to you is to take some off the table. Doing a partial cash out is absolutely fine. The market is bullish. We are witnessing a redistribution of wealth at a global scale. Bitcoin is the real #occupywallstreet, and every one will discuss crypto at Xmas eve which will make the market even more supportive beginning 2018, especially with all hedge funds entering the scene. If you want to stay exposed to bitcoin and altcoins, and believe these techs will change the world, it’s just natural you want to keep some coins. In the meantime, if you have lived off pizzas over the last years, and have the means to now buy yourself an nice house and have an account at a private bank, then f***ing do it mate ! Buy physical gold with this account, buy real estate, have some cash at hands. Even though US dollar is worthless to your eyes, it’s good and convenient to have some. Also remember your wife deserves it ! And if you have no wife yet and you are socially awkward like the rest of us, then maybe cashing out partially will help your situation ;) What the Private Banks expect. Joke aside, it is important you understand something. If you come around in Zurich to open a bank account and partially cash out, just don’t expect Private Banks will make an exception for you if you are small. You can’t ask them to facilitate your cash out, buy a 1m apartment with the proceeds of the sale, and not leave anything on your current account. It won’t work. Sadly, under 5m you are considered small in private banking. The bank is ok to let you open an account, provided that your kyc and compliance file are validated, but they will also want you to become a client and leave some money there to invest. This might me despicable, but I am just explaining you their rules. If you want to cash out, you should sell enough to be comfortable and have some left. Also expect the account opening to last at least 3-4 week if everything goes well. You can't just open an account overnight. The cash out logistics. Cashing out 1m USD a day in bitcoin or more is not so hard. Let me just tell you this: Even if you get a Tier 4 account with Kraken and ask Alejandro there to raise your limit over $100k per day, Even if you have a bitfinex account and you are willing to expose your wealth there, Even if you have managed to pass all the crazy due diligence at Bitstamp, The amount should be fractioned to avoid risking your full wealth on exchange and getting slaughtered on the price by trading big quantities. Cashing out involves significant risks at all time. There is a security risk of compromising your keys, a counterparty risk, a fat finger risk. Let it be done by professionals. It is worth every single penny. Most importantly, there is a major difference between trading on an exchange and trading OTC. Even though it’s not publicly disclosed some exchange like Kraken do have OTC desks. Trading on an exchange for a large amount will weight on the prices. Bitcoin is a thin market. In my opinion over 30% of the coins are lost in translation forever. Selling $10m on an exchange in a day can weight on the prices more than you’d think. And if you trade on a exchange, everything is shown on record, and you might wipe out the prices because on exchanges like bitstamp or kraken ultimately your counterparties are retail investors and the market depth is not huge. It is a bit better on Bitfinex. It is way better to trade OTC. Accessing the institutional OTC market is not easy, and that is also the reason why you should ask a regulated financial intermediary if we are talking about huge amounts. Last point, always chose EUR as opposed to USD. EU correspondent banks won’t generally block institutional amounts. However we had the cases of USD funds frozen or delayed by weeks. Most well-known OTC desks are Cumberlandmining (ask for Lucas), Genesis (ask for Martin), Bitcoin Suisse AG (ask for Niklas), circletrade, B2C2, or Altcoinomy (ask for Olivier) Very very large whales can also set up escrow accounts for massive block trades. This world, where blocks over 30k BTC are exchanged between 2 parties would deserve a reddit thread of its own. Crazyness all around. Your options: DIY or going through a regulated financial intermediary. Execution trading is a job in itself. You have to be patient, be careful not to wipe out the order book and place limit orders, monitor the market intraday for spikes or opportunities. At big levels, for a large cash out that may take weeks, these kind of details will save you hundred thousands of dollars. I understand crypto holders are suspicious and may prefer to do it by themselves, but there are regulated entities who now offer the services. Besides, being a crypto millionaire is not a guarantee you will get institutional daily withdrawal limits at exchange. You might, but it will take you another round of KYC with them, and surprisingly this round might be even more aggressive that the ones at Private banks since exchange have gone under intense scrutiny by regulators lately. The fees for cashing out through a regulated financial intermediary to help you with your cash out should be around 1-2% flat on the nominal, not more. And for this price you should get the full package: execution/monitoring of the trades AND onboarding in a private bank. If you are asked more, you are being abused. Of course, you also have the option to do it yourself. It is a way more tedious and risky process. Compliance with the exchange, compliance with the private bank, trading BTC/fiat, monitoring the transfers…You will save some money but it will take you some time and stress. Further, if you approach a private bank directly, it will trigger a series of red flag to the banks. As I said in my previous post, they call a direct approach a “walk-in”. They will be more suspicious than if you were introduced by someone and won’t hesitate to show you high fees and load your portfolio with in-house products that earn more money to the banks than to you. Remember also most banks still do not understand crypto so you will have a lot of explanations to provide and you will have to start form scratch with them! The paradox of crypto millionaires Most of my clients who made their wealth through crypto all took massive amount of risks to end up where they are. However, most of them want their bank account to be managed with a low volatility fixed income capital preservation risk profile. This is a paradox I have a hard time to explain and I think it is mainly due to the fact that most are distrustful towards banks and financial markets in general. Many clients who have sold their crypto also have a cash-out blues in the first few months. This is a classic situation. The emotions involved in hodling for so long, the relief that everything has eventually gone well, the life-changing dynamics, the difficulties to find a new motivation in life…All these elements may trigger a post cash-out depression. It is another paradox of the crypto rich who has every card in his hand to be happy, but often feel a bit sad and lonely. Sometimes, even though it’s not my job, I had to do some psychological support. A lot of clients have also become my friends, because we have the same age and went through the same “ordeal”. First world problem I know… Remember, cashing out is not the end. It’s actually the beginning. Don’t look back, don’t regret. Cash out partially, because it does not make sense to cash out in full, regret it and want back in. relax. The race to cash out crypto billionaire and the concept of late exiter. The Winklevoss brothers are obviously the first of a series. There will be crypto billionaires. Many of them. At a certain level you can have a whole family office working for you to manage your assets and take care of your needs . However, let me tell you it’s is not because you made it so big that you should think you are a genius and know everything better than anyone. You should hire professionals to help you. Managing assets require some education around the investment vehicles and risk management strategies. Sorry guys but with all the respect I have for wallstreebet, AMD and YOLO stock picking, some discipline is necessary. The investors who have made money through crypto are generally early adopters. However I have started to see another profile popping up. They are not early adopters. They are late exiters. It is another way but just as efficient. Last week I met the first crypto millionaire I know who first bough bitcoin over 1000$. 55k invested at the beginning of this year. Late adopter & late exiter is a route that can lead to the million. Last remarks. I know banks, bankers, and FIAT currencies are so last century. I know some of you despise them and would like to have them burn to the ground. With compliance officers taking over the business, I would like to start the fire myself sometimes. I hope this extensive guide has helped some of you. I am around if you need more details. I love my job despite all my frustration towards the banking industry because it makes me meet interesting people on a daily basis. I am a crypto enthusiast myself, and I do think this tech is here to stay and will change the world. Banks will have to adapt big time. Things have started to change already; they understand the threat is real. I can feel the generational gap in Geneva, with all these old bankers who don’t get what’s going on. They glaze at the bitcoin chart on CNBC in disbelief and they start to get it. This bitcoin thing is not a joke. Deep inside, as an early adopter who also intends to be a late exiter, as a libertarian myself, it makes me smile with satisfaction. Cheers. @swisspb on telegram
Ritocoin - a 100% community driven project based on Ravencoin
tl:dr: Ritocoin is a code fork of the Ravencoin codebase and continues to track future Ravencoin developments. The project was launched to provide a more community-oriented blockchain with the same functionality as Ravencoin, without a corporate overseer, and with a more flexible model for community participation and development. It’s intention is to be a hacker’s playground for innovative ideas. Specifications Proof-of-Work Algorithm: X21S Block Time: 60 seconds POW Block Reward: Smooth curve down Community fund: 1% first year Difficulty Retargeting: DGW-180 Maximum Supply: 6 months: 993,521,892 RITO 1 year: 1,227,448,858 RITO 5 years: 1,762,210,058 RITO 10 years: 1,820,404,381 RITO 50 years: 2,030,907,256 RITO 100 years: 2,293,707,246 RITO Infinite: 10 RITO per block in perpetuity Pre-mine: None Masternodes: Researching for use case Asset layer: Was enabled at height 50,000 Links Website /ritocoin Explorer Github Whitepaper twitter [ANN] X21S This hashing algorithm was created specifically for Ritocoin, and was designed to resist FPGAs, ASICs, and NiceHash. It is X16S (16 algorithms shuffled and hashed),, followed by 5 additional hashing algorithms: haval256, tiger, lyra2, gost512, and sha256. The inclusion of lyra2 brings numerous advantages, making parallelization of the algorithm practically impossible, with each step relying on the previous step having already been computed. It is a “friendly” algorithm that makes GPUs produce much less heat and uses less electricity during mining. Take your time to learn more about us in the below story of Ritocoin... The spirit of Bitcoin continues to inspire, empower and enable people around the globe. Ten years later, just as it seemed Bitcoin was being defined by commercial agents and regulated governance, that same free and independent spirit imbued the Ravencoin community. In ten short months, however, 30% of the Ravencoin project’s net hash comes from NiceHash and the looming impact of the imminent FPGA mining cards and X16R bitstreams certainly promises to shake up the dream of this GPU miner’s darling. Ravencoin’s fair launch genuinely inspired our developers and supporters. We admire the way Ravencoin came out swinging — fighting for fairness, an honest distribution of coins and a place where GPU miners could thrive. The asset layer attracted many more miners and investors to the pools. Many Ritocoin enthusiasts came from the Ravencoin community, and continue their association with that project. The whole crypto ecosystem should appreciate the work begun by Ravencoin. Obviously they continue to inspire and motivate us to this day. It’s the reason we took action. We decided to start our own project which focuses upon at least two pillars of decentralized networks in the crypto space: community governance and a fair distribution of coins. It is a core belief throughout Ritocoin that in order to successfully develop and maintain this hacker’s playground — a place where a broad range of ideas could be tried and allowed to flourish — these two ideals must be allowed to drive and guide our community. This deep focus on community choices creates a project flexible enough to support most ideas, and agile enough to define new frontiers. A mining network’s distributed ledger is defined by its technology. Like many in the broader crypto-mining community, we value the GPU for its accessibility. These processors are available for purchase all around the world without any legal restrictions. GPUs are vastly more accessible for hobbyists and miners to acquire. They can be shipped nearly anywhere around the globe, a nice benefit to the popular secondary market which has sprung up much to the chagrin of PC gamers. More constraints exist for the ASIC and FPGA miner. Laws in some parts of the world restrict people from using or buying ASIC and FPGA mining hardware. This alone is directly in confrontation with Ritocoin’s core values of decentralized stewardship and sovereignty. The GPU, in essence, is like your voice. Anyone with the means of acquiring one GPU should be able to have their voice heard. ASIC and FPGA mining devalues the GPU miner’s voice and silos that coin’s network away from the small scale and personal mining operator. A truly community driven project means each stakeholder, regardless of size of contribution to the network’s net hash, has an opportunity to build, vote and direct. If you are already familiar with our website, discord or whitepaper, you are probably aware that masternodes had been proposed as a feature of the network from the beginning. This opened the door to ongoing discussions in the Ritocoin community regarding ● A masternode’s true purpose ● What benefit they provide to the project ● How the benefit is realized ● The collateral This discussion, governed entirely by stakeholders across the extended network yielded a defining moment for our vision of flexibility. We have not yet found the potential utility of masternodes, however, the conversation has not reached an extent to where we could abandon the idea. To quote one of our developers during this discussion on our Discord:
“Just want to give a reminder here that even though masternodes are on the roadmap, it is not set in stone. This coin belongs to the community and we will do what we as a community want to do. If we conclude that we want to take this coin a different direction than masternodes, then that is what we’ll do.” --traysi
We are all volunteers at Ritocoin. Our moderators and community leaders try to give immediate support to all users that require it. Contact us in Discord or Telegram, not only for support, but, proposing new ideas, revising old ones and just so you can find a place to get together and find people to hang out with. You are well within your rights to enjoy yourself at any given moment, and, should you feel so inclined to begin working with the team, we just so happen to be looking for ambitious individuals that see themselves as being part of a greater vision, are inspired by change, and inspired to be the change they want to see making things better in this world. Join us in a space where your ideas to build something great can become a reality. We are eager to know what you think is best for the future of Rito. What steps would you take to become more resilient, stronger, fair and decentralized? Because at the end of the day, like it or not, love it or leave it.. this is your coin, too. You can become a significant part of this project. We will help you further develop the role you wish to fill in the cryptocurrency space — influencer, developer, analyst, you name it. This is not a just-for-developer’s playground. We want the enthusiasts. We want the perplexed and the rabbit-hole divers. This is the coin for everyone who is trying to find their place on the path that Satoshi began unfolding in 2008 after the collapse of the housing market rippled out into the subsequent crash of global markets. That’s why we have Bitcoin, remember? Be your own bank. This is why Satoshi and Bitcoin.org kept their software open source. It’s up to us to keep the torch ablaze. Community funds For the first year, about 1% of mined coins are set aside into a developers fund that is used to provide bounties to the community developers who make substantial development contributions to the Ritocoin ecosystem. We have already paid out numerous bounties for important work that has already benefits Ritocoin in substantial ways. We also have another donation-driven community fund that has recently been put together for the purposes of doing fun contests and things like that. Cooperation and collaborations We have discovered a number of fatal flaws in the original Ravencoin codebase and worked with the Ravencoin developers to get those fixed in both Ritocoin and Ravencoin. This work has benefitted Ravencoin in numerous ways and we look forward to a long time of collaboration and cooperation between us and them. Many members of the Safecoin team are also in our discord group, and have collaborated with us in shaping the future decisions of Ritocoin. We have several thousand members in our group and they represent all walks of cryptocurrency life. We invite all coin developers, miners and enthusiasts to join our discord and be a part of this coin that truly belongs entirely to the community. Block reward A couple weeks ago we met for a scheduled meeting in our discord group and had a lengthy conversation about the block reward. Our block reward started at 5,000 RITO per block (every 60 seconds) just like Ravencoin. This extremely high number of coins coupled with the high profitability of mining led to unforeseen consequences with pools auto-exchanging the coin into bitcoin. This dumping by non-community miners had a very negative impact on the community sentiment and morale, as we watched the exchange price plunge. We looked at other coins and realized that this fate has befell many other coins with high block rewards. Following much discussion, we decided to change the reward structure. Starting around March 19th the block rewards will start to slowly go down in a curve until it reaches 1,000. Then the reduction will be even more slowed down with block rewards exponentially dropping at periodic intervals. We have posted charts on our website that shows what the long-term effects of our reward reducing algorithms will be. As a miner, the next 2 months will be a great time to mine and hold, while the block reward is still fairly high. We encourage all miners and cryptocurrency enthusiasts to take advantage of the current favourable block reward and build a nice holding for yourself. Then join the community and be a part of the fun we’re having with this project. This post was prepared by a collaboration of multiple Ritocoin members and was posted to reddit by the core developer Trevali, who posts to reddit under the ritocoin username and will be very happy to answer any questions anybody may have about our project. Traysi (well known in the Ravencoin community) is also an active Ritocoin developer and may come to this thread if needed. We welcome any questions from any of you regarding our project!
In the next eight hours the Bitcoin Cash difficulty will adjust to a level where it is more profitable to mine the legacy chain. What will happen to the price during this time no one knows. There is no historical data to draw from. Other SHA256 coins never had the market that Bitcoin Cash has right now. Not too long after the Bitcoin Cash difficulty adjustment the Legacy Chain will have a small adjustment downwards. This will just about be negligible. It's reasonable to assume that hash power will then switch from the Bitcoin Cash chain to the Legacy Chain. However I expect that enough miners will stick around to prevent an Emergency Difficulty Adjustment. In my mind this will be a good thing, this will allow Bitcoin Cash to survive on its merit rather than bribe the network with inflation. Then there will be a period that I consider to be the long wait. This period will be around six weeks long, and during this time Bitcoin Cash blocks could come out as slowly as once an hour. Even in this case Bitcoin Cash will still be able to process 33% more transactions then the legacy chain. During the long wait there is an opportunity to transfer some of the infrastructure that the legacy chain has to Bitcoin Cash. By infrastructure I mean merchant adoption, Exchanges, Mining pools (maybe a Cash only pool),use cases etc. Then after the long wait the difficulty of Bitcoin Cash will adjust and it will be more profitable to mine Bitcoin Cash. Since there has already been some miners making the switch and the infrastructure is in place to allow others to easily switch, we will see that the Legacy chain will a more stressed Legacy chain at that time. If the difficulty adjust downwards but not as far down as it is now, then the stress period for the legacy chain will be longer. So walk down to the local pub and have a few pints and wait for this whole thing to blow over. You will need a lot of pints.
Please find below the slack log for discussion relating AIP19 as presented here https://github.com/ArkEcosystem/AIPs/issues/26 I will try to write a blog post explaining in further detail the AIP19 for non-technical individuals however due to current obligations it will be delayed and finish some time in September. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Matthew_DC [3:43 PM] I think AIP 18/19 has some merit and I had a chance to look at it before he published. He gave Francois and I a chance to review the idea as he was hesitant to post it publicly in fear that a competitor might steal it, which I can appreciate. There are a lot of things in there that I find interesting. The proposal in AIP18 makes a lot of sense and would solidify the price discovery and help create a streamlined system for the wallet for token swaps. We can make it intuitive and easy to use. The AIP19 proposal is where I think we all need to slow down and seriously consider both the impact it would have on ARK and what ARK is trying to accomplish, as well as the complications that might arise from the system. For starters, AIP19 turns ARK into a decentralized delegate services network. In other words, Consensus-As-A-Service (CAAS). This is something we actually discussed at Crypti and had a model for, which I believe Lisk is still planning on implementing. That model looks very similar to what Komodo has already tried to implement in regards to storing data on the main chain (hashes) relevant to the sidechain as an added security layer. I'm not sure that solution is the best model and I think there is a major problem that needs solved, which AIP19 is partially trying to address. That problem is the security of early stage bridge chains who have yet to build a strong following. Finding a way to use the "hash power", or in this case, vote based security, of the main chain, is something I've been very interested in and would love to find a proper solution for. What needs to be considered is the impact that the system has on up-time and reliability of the network (for starters). Let's say I'm an attacker and I want to just really hose up the works. If I create a script that moves large chunks of voting wait all over the place consistently for multiple blocks or rounds, how will that impact the delegates assignments, will they all switch to the appropriate network in time, will blocks be missed as the transition occurs, etc. Consider that every 1-2 cent change in price could drastically move delegates between networks and if you couple that with voter swings, you are looking at a lot of moving parts. For all of that complexity, what added security do you really gain? New bridge chains will still be very low on the list for delegates due to price which makes them easy targets. However, for an attacker, it would potentially randomize the order of delegates to a point where it would make it very hard to put yourself in position to take over a network which would add a lot of difficulty to an attack. To try and gauge exactly the amount of votes, the price of the token, and what 27 spots you would need to control would be almost impossible. The complicated part would be smoothing out the delegate transitions in a way that doesn't cause total constant chaos among delegates as votes, prices, and registrations are constantly changing. Imagine 5 years from now if there are 100 bridge chains, some with 101 delegates, some with 501, some with 51, etc. What if someone comes in and registers a network with 1,000,000,000 delegates, does it shut down the system? How does it react? There are a lot of things like that which have to be considered before you can move forward with something like this. I'm not saying it's a bad idea and I think it's a really intriguing use of the system, especially for DPoS, but there is a lot that has to be mapped out. You can't just start coding it and hope for the best. cj (azek) [3:55 PM] @Matthew_DC ++ Matthew_DC [4:12 PM] On a side note, I think that the CAAS model fits directly with the desire to have the ARK core technology power startups and enterprises blockchain solutions while providing a strong avenue for the public decentralized applications to take hold and grow. By keying their consensus and security into one main chain, it does provide added security and allow for a use case other than "currency" for the main net, but it does do it at the cost of some decentralization. Part of why ARK is being developed to allow bridged but separate chains is to avoid one central point of failure (the point of all of this). By making so many systems globally dependent on the ARK main chain for their consensus mechanism to function, you do sacrifice decentralization for security in this case. If the ARK network were to end up with a critical bug or suffer from some kind of attack, etc, it could cause all subsequent reliant network to stop forging as well. This is something we are always thinking about. vdeurzen (blockport) [4:20 PM] joined #trading_altcoins. bangomatic [4:23 PM] order books finally on Delta. :allthethings: Jarunik [4:38 PM] For AIP18 I have my doubts concerning price finding. Free market will likely beat a stable coin formula. I would rather see each token valued individually. Didn‘t analyse the formulas in detail but looks like a weak point. A market based pricing would be more interesting. Blazeron [4:39 PM] why wouldn't it just use the market value automatically? Jarunik [4:39 PM] Because there is none Check persona as example Whats the Ark-Prs market rate? tk0n (thefoundry) [4:43 PM] price is also susceptible to manipulation bangomatic [4:43 PM] polymath making some BIG announcements today. www.twitter.com/polymathnetwork Blazeron [4:48 PM] hmm true, it wouldn't work with very small tokens that aren't widely listed Matthew_DC [5:11 PM] That's the same problem you have right now with any exchange. There are hundreds of tokens you could spike by 200% in 5 mins for like $200 The point isn't whether or not all of his math is perfect or whether or not his formula is even the one that gets used, its about whether or not it is a good idea to create "liquidity gates" for atomic swaps and separately, should they be used for price discovery even if an AIP isn't taken and implemented wholesale, it may provide value through some of the ideas involved Obviously, the system he proposes in AIP19 doesn't work without proper price discovery and some kind of oracle Keep in mind, he specifically proposes a stable coin formula as an example as well as an exponential priced ICO token wherein the creator would be using it as a system to fund an ICO, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't have free market price discovery through some form of order book function. pieface [5:19 PM] Would AIP19 deem the ArkVM chain as not needed anymore? Matthew_DC [5:20 PM] To avoid major shuffling issues it almost makes sense to have a superblock either every round or x number of rounds with a longer block time to allow the delegate system to perform averages on price/position of bridge chains for delegate assignment and allow a longer period of adjustment pieface [5:20 PM] One of the benefits of the ArkVM chain is that you don't have to find delegates to run your chain, AIP19 sounds like it solves the same problem in a different way Matthew_DC [5:21 PM] It would be a completely separate consideration from VM and VM would still be something we want/need Jarunik [5:22 PM] If we need super blocks ... then it will slow down the mainnet the more sidechains we have. Wouldn't it be better to use decentralized ACES? Matthew_DC [5:25 PM] You could probably do it with 1 longer block at the end of each round to allow time for the shuffling. So one longer block every 7 mins or so. That's just a random thought and is something that would have to be tested. In some sense, this system IS ACES, just upgraded to take into account the added features of v2/AIP11 like webhooks, multi-sig, time locks, etc just re-organized into a dex with some form of order book and then used for price discovery Jarunik [5:26 PM] yes ... but it should run outside of the Ark mainnet and just connect to it Matthew_DC [5:26 PM] Well, like I said above, in his proposal, you exchange decentralization for security/valuation Which is one of the considerations (edited) It's the same argument we've been having all along brodinson [5:27 PM] I'd like some extra security and valuation :evil: Matthew_DC [5:27 PM] Do you potentially sacrifice principal for token valuation? Security would be for bridge chains Jarunik [5:28 PM] it will increase the risk for the main chain ... brodinson [5:28 PM] That's fine too right Matthew_DC [5:28 PM] At some point, you have to ask are you just recreating the current financial system with you as the central bank brodinson [5:28 PM] I mean ark being an ecosystem and all Want all that good security stuffs for the bridgechains Jarunik [5:29 PM] I am against Ark being the "master" chain. :slightly_smiling_face: brodinson [5:29 PM] Also extra reasons for a higher valuation can only attract more investors and thus more attention. Matthew_DC [5:29 PM] The more bridge chains that rely on the ARK main chain for security and in order for their applications to work, the more you risk incentivizing collusion and extortion by the delegates and increase their personal power over people's money (edited) Jarunik [5:30 PM] If you do something directly for "high valuation" ... then you will take that profit from someone else ... Who will lose ? brodinson [5:30 PM] Find countermeasures to possible collusion? Jarunik [5:30 PM] Unlikely to work. brodinson [5:30 PM] Maybe some random factors? Jarunik [5:30 PM] Power corrupts Matthew_DC [5:30 PM] I mean, at the end of the day, what he is suggesting, and what AIP19 boils down to, is turning the ARK Main Chain into a decentralized Delegate Marketplace for ARK Bridge Chains. It's a pivot for the purpose of the main chain for sure. Jarunik [5:31 PM] And my point is that a bridgechain not good enough to create a delegate incentive and market is not good enough anyway. Matthew_DC [5:32 PM] The delegate marketplace was always meant to be a completely open free market system where people could find delegates for their bridge chains and make offers/promote their chains, but never force tie-in to the ARK main chain and 100% exclusively rely on it for security and validation. Jarunik [5:32 PM] If the bridge chain does offer utility and functionality ... then it will be no problem to pay the delegates. Matthew_DC [5:33 PM] He doesn't shy away from it in the proposal and outright says that a large motivating factor for the proposal is to create valuation for the ARK token and a use case. Jarunik [5:33 PM] So this kind of ark mainchain market place sounds like a concept to push up "unhealthy" sidechains for higher valuation (similar like shittokens of eth) spghtzzz(ark.party is not a website) [5:33 PM] ARK already has those Matthew_DC [5:34 PM] If it were me personally and only me and I wasn't relying on the ARK token to make me rich and I could make decisions based on my fundamentals and what was right in staying true to the nature of ARK and decentralization, I would whole heartedly say no way. But the delegates decide what happens to the network in the end, not me. vela_nova [5:34 PM] No it sound like a way to incentivize adoption Matthew_DC [5:34 PM] There are lots of driving forces and for many, that driving force is token valuation, whether we like it or not. Having every delegate for every bridge chain be required to register and receive payment on the main chain isn't really adoption in the way we want it. (edited) spghtzzz(ark.party is not a website) [5:35 PM] Marketplaces seem like a good idea, but I think ARKVM will probably stop people from having to delegate every single function they want to create, using tokens and leveraging someone elses blockchain as a service. Jarunik [5:36 PM] we already have a delegate market place ... if you offer good enough incentives and a convincing project ... easy to find dpos delegates. pieface [5:38 PM] Couldn't there be a compromise somewhere? Continue with the Ark Mainchain like now. An ArkVM chain which the Arkcoin is pegged to An ArkDM (Ark delegate marketplace) chain which the Ark coin is also pegged to. (edited) Matthew_DC [5:38 PM] The truth is, a large part of the valuation and use of the token relies on our ability to create easy swapping mechanisms for ARK->Bridge Chains so that we can incorporate easy, simple to use, GUI driven interaction with bridge chains without anyone ever needing to own the other token. That involves ACES or something like AIP18, it involves creating multi-sig and time lock style transactions, that allow the network to use something similar to liquidity gates (for the sake of argument) to allow the ARK wallet or application store to carry out the bridge chain functions with the ARK balance, invisible to the user. @pieface There is nothing to stop someone from creating any possible use case, whether that be a delegate marketplace or 3 or 4 VM focused chains with different flavors and incentives, etc vela_nova [5:44 PM] You can’t expect potential clients to identify a use case, the actors involved, and where that use case starts and ends without some kind of built in framework and enough momentum/adoption to ensure dependability. (edited) Matthew_DC [5:45 PM] This is the tricky part of decentralized business and a decentralized world, you have to come to consensus. It's why there are so many forks out there. If we asked every delegate, odds are it would be split on AIP19 If a potential client hasn't identified a use case then how are they a client? We absolutely can expect a potential client to identify a use case or they have no business. That's step #1. As far as finding delegates, we had always planned a marketplace, just not tied to the ARK main chain in the way described in AIP19. As far as examples and frameworks, we are building out new documentation and have some partners who will be helping us do just that. vela_nova [5:55 PM] It sounds like you’re relying too much on an audience that has already accepted ark as a solution to their needs. That’s problematic when it comes strengthening the ecosystem and encouraging adoption. I look forward to this new documentation though (edited) zebedee [5:57 PM] lol Lisk up 30% , mainnet pump vela_nova [6:02 PM] :shrugs: vela_nova [6:15 PM] So the lisk community is convinced that their resources are dedicated to a productive cause. Maybe we could use some positive speculation too for a change. A little shade is one thing, but y’all are some walking palm trees :palm_tree: up in here. This culture of scrutinizing lisk or any other project but the one one we’re here for is ironically weakening the ark. SuperCool (The Golden Horde) [6:16 PM] The we already have a market place argument is an inside argument imo. From the ‘outside’ aip19 would sound really nice. While there is some truth in the ‘shitcoin argument’ I feel it almost the same as the ‘bitcoin is used by criminals’ argument Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [6:16 PM] What's the golden horde ? SuperCool (The Golden Horde) [6:17 PM] Our marketing failed :cripes: Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [6:17 PM] If it was on Reddit, I'm sorry. I don't follow the Reddit much because of the time Ark Tribe takes. tk0n (thefoundry) [6:17 PM] you have marketing? SuperCool (The Golden Horde) [6:18 PM] @Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) Colby made a really nice introduction: https://medium.com/the-golden-horde-blog/the-golden-horde-announces-ark-delegation-merchandise-business-e3f1a4162a60?source=linkShare-b6b32376193e-1534436290 Medium The Golden Horde Announces Ark Delegation & Merchandise Business After being in the Ark community for more than a year, we have seen a lot of great people coming together and discussing all things… Reading time 6 min read Jul 26th https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1200/1*HOBm_aB5iJ4XUCV5y9Ls7g.png SuperCool (The Golden Horde) [6:19 PM] replied to a thread: This is really offensive, we should remove tk0n vela_nova [6:20 PM] Ya little too much behind closed doors for my taste. SuperCool (The Golden Horde) The we already have a market place argument is an inside argument imo. From the ‘outside’ aip19 would sound really nice. While there is some truth in the ‘shitcoin argument’ I feel it almost the same as the ‘bitcoin is used by criminals’ argument Posted in #trading_altcoinsToday at 6:16 PM Highjhacker (The Golden Horde) [6:20 PM] replied to a thread: DELETE :angry: arkenstone [6:39 PM] Slack outage This message was deleted. tk0n (thefoundry) [6:41 PM] You can take away my GIFs but you can never take away my freedom :allthethings: SuperCool (The Golden Horde) This is really offensive, we should remove tk0n From a thread in #trading_altcoinsToday at 6:19 PM arkenstone [6:43 PM] This was strange ..was on officia slack .. they said servers were down ..was getting error messages when sending text .. SuperCool (The Golden Horde) [6:44 PM] Yeah slack was down for me aswell I wanted to ad to my argument that aip19 or a similar solution would make ‘push click blockchain’ a real thing Msk [6:55 PM] joined #trading_altcoins. Matthew_DC [6:58 PM] I had a reply but couldn't post it and now I forgot :shrugs: SuperCool (The Golden Horde) [7:04 PM] Haha I also wrote that a lot smarter the first time mak [7:14 PM] Thanks for the feedback @Matthew_DC. Some of the points you mention up have been brought up in the last week by @skeuo as well. Such as someone changing votes frequently in order to mess with the system and someone creating a chain with 10,000 delegates. For the first problem I suggested that vote recount could happen every few hours instead of every block but it's possible there is a better way to handle this. In the second case I think a bridgechain with so many delegates wouldn't be able to sustain any significant token value since the blockreward would be diminished so much or would be unable to pay out because the liquidity gate ran out of ark. I agree these are technical hurdles related to implementation that we need to consider but I don't see them as critical issues. Regarding your last point i.e someone breaking ark main chain would break the entire ecosystem I acknowledge that it is a concern. Which is why the token economic incentive is useful to make it more difficult to execute a 51% attack on the main chain. On the other hand since the bridgechains depend on the main chain's security for theirs, it makes the bridge chains more secure. In the end I see this as a mechanism design problem where the best approaches can be proven mathematically using game theory and if there's a better way to achieve the same effects then I'd be glad to check them out. Matthew_DC [7:18 PM] You also have to consider the consensus mechanisms and individual components and modules used by bridge chains. A given bridge chain may require a specific set of modules for their applications purpose. In that sense, their node software may be vastly different for providing consensus when compared to the ARK core model. In this case, let's say delegates ABC are providing consensus for Bridge Chain X and after vote re-shuffle, ABC are now required to provide consensus for the use case of Bridge Chain Y. This may require a completely different software package for the node and you have to determine a model for those delegates to not just re-shuffle to new peers for consensus, but also potentially download and implement new modules or entire new packages in order to provide consensus for the given bridge chain to which they are assigned. (edited) Jarunik [7:19 PM] Did anyone check the sidechain forging from mainchain that blockpool is developing? Matthew_DC [7:20 PM] I haven't mike [7:20 PM] I like the proposals but prefer pie's approach of implementing them on bridged chains. The main chain needs to be simple and reliable like TCP/IP. We then build on top of in modular fashion, like adding email and http on top of TCP/IP instead of adding them to it. Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [7:23 PM] @mike the point was to make Ark the reward system, if they're on the bridged chain how would they receive Ark as the token reward for their forging chain? It was also meant as an incensitive for non-forging node, as for now, they're running a node for free. Matthew_DC [7:24 PM] Maybe instead you do a dual voting system that somehow ties into a core delegate market network or the ARK Main Chain that allows for voting on a given bridge chain using a bridge chain ID# and Delegate# and every ARK accounts gets 1 vote per bridge chain and then that holds 60% weight and the bridge chain votes hold 40% and the bridge chain has a mechanism built into their node through a module that pulls votes from main net So you provide additional security without the main net delegates providing consensus so packages aren't an issue and it's not as susceptible to being completely taken down by ark main net going down as a secondary voting system exists (bridge chain votes) (edited) mak [7:25 PM] That was also one of the suggestions that @skeuo came up with but from what I could work up it would have adverse effects on scaling since all main chain delegates now need to have a full node running for every bridgechain in order to know bridgechain only delegates (edited) However if we could provide hard SPV guarantees then maybe it's possible Matthew_DC [7:27 PM] OK, no need to map that out further I think you know what I'm saying on that one and it sounds like it was mentioned. Well, how do you trust any values from any network truly. If you want to vote on a bridge chain, then your wallet has to connect to a relay or node on that network through the same way we do now on ARK no need to download the entire chain necessarily goldenpepe [7:28 PM] How does one provide SPV guarantees in dpos? mak [7:30 PM] the block headers leading up to the required transaction are provided though I'm not sure if the chance of correctness in DPoS is the same as in PoW (edited) Matthew_DC [7:30 PM] Delegates on the bridge chain could still convert and payout forging rewards to main net voters with a little work to the scripts JayCrypto [7:32 PM] You guys need a new white paper Matthew_DC [7:33 PM] Way to break the flow mak [7:34 PM] the main issue IMO would be with main chain delegates accepting the threshold signatures if some of the delegates have been selected only on the bridgechain then the main chain can't know for certain about them without SPV or a fullnode and like I mentioned I don't have the expertise to figure out how reliable SPV is in a DPoS system JayCrypto [7:35 PM] Why does it matter Why can't the nodes run their own delegates (edited) mak [7:36 PM] the bridge chain could either go 100% delegates voted on their own chain or 100% delegates voted on main chain but not a mixture of both JayCrypto [7:37 PM] Why mak [7:37 PM] it would require main chain delegates to run full nodes for all bridgechains not scalable you run into the same situation that ethereum has currently JayCrypto [7:41 PM] I'm not a tech person but I always envisioned ark as bridge chains not connected to main chain but able to communicate with them through arkVM or some aces module. I never thought the bridge chains would need the security of ark. As for ICO, I was under the impression that through arkVM or aces, companies can raise money through ark/Eth/btc... And eventually some arkVM Dex would be available to trade between tokens Matthew_DC [7:41 PM] Maybe I'm being naive here, but why does the main chain care? It's up to the bridge chain to properly implement the dual voting for the added security and to require voting from main net to impact their voting mechanism. Main net should just store a vote value. If it's 60/40 main chain voting to bridge chain voting to determine delegates, then you still have a ton of added security. IF the bridge chain isn't properly implementing it, then people should consider whether or not they really want to put their money into the token/bridge chain. It would require the bridge chain delegates run an ARK node but that's better for us and creates a larger ARK main network by adding more relays. Sorry, maybe I'm missing something and I'm just thinking out loud while doing a bunch of other stuff mak [7:42 PM] main chain needs to approve/disapprove remote liquidity gate transactions based on it's knowledge of current bridgechain delegates Matthew_DC [7:42 PM] I'm not talking about the liquidity gate right now mak [7:42 PM] can't have AIP18 working without it Matthew_DC [7:42 PM] I'm talking about dual voting chains for added security and then we don't need price discovery for vote shuffles JayCrypto [7:43 PM] What's a liquidity gate mak [7:43 PM] @JayCrypto please read the AIP 18 :slightly_smiling_face: https://github.com/ArkEcosystem/AIPs/issues/25 GitHub AIP 18: On chain price discovery using liquidity gates · Issue #25 · ArkEcosystem/AIPs AIP: 18 Title: Token price discovery and creating high liquidity decentralized exchange in the Ark ecosystem using instant crosschain atomic swaps Authors: Moazzam Abdullah Khan Status: Draft Type:... Matthew_DC [7:44 PM] and it provides utility because the voting from main chain provides security to side chain and also potentially if main chain accounts get 1 vote on every bridge chain it provides for additional forging rewards exponentially as the network grows but without adding a bunch of complex activity on the main chain just more voting transactions really mak [7:44 PM] We could make it so that the bridgechain only delegates aren't part of the k-threshold signature for the liquidity gate that way it would work Matthew_DC [7:45 PM] ark tokens wouldn't dilute bridge chain circulation as they aren't actual tokens, but they provide for voting to expand capability and security of bridge chain through their use mak [7:45 PM] but then those delegates are 2nd class delegates that don't share the full responsibility Matthew_DC [7:45 PM] and voters on main chain could be paid out from converted forging rewards Aren't they though? ARK main net provides 100% of security of its main chain and 60% of all bridge chains that implement, bridge chains hold 40% of responsibility which is reasonable but allows for much more expensive 51% attacks if main net votes are being used on bridge chains providing added security for new chains just spinning up mak [7:47 PM] how do you propose we create the threshold signatures to control liquidity gates when the delegates are split like this? Maybe I'm missing something here Matthew_DC [7:47 PM] I'm not concerned at all with liquidity gates right now I'm talking about a system in which bridge chains get added security, main chain gets added utility, by adding very little to main chain bloat and using vendor field then you are back to the idea of just having a decentralized exchange for swaps, atomic swaps, and traditional methods of moving funds between for that matter, any DPoS chain could tie in to the main chain for added security using that method by registering a chain and allowing voting mak [7:49 PM] Let me ask you this then. Do you agree that the bridgechain's delegates should be responsible for handling it's liquidity gate? You have to keep in mind there are potentially billions of dollars worth of tokens stored in them. I think that delegates should be responsible for it because the community trusted them with their votes. Matthew_DC [7:50 PM] just create an atomic swap marketplace mak [7:51 PM] can't have price discovery without liquidity gates though. So there would be no rank ladder to figure out delegate-bridgechain match Matthew_DC [7:51 PM] no ladder necessary no convoluted hot swapping delegates main chain accounts choose who they want to vote for and can register 1 vote per bridge chain mak [7:52 PM] well then you have the same issue of delegates speculating on future token price and negotiating with team to become a delegate too much social friction Matthew_DC [7:53 PM] I disagree. People said our version of DPoS wouldn't work because of social this and that and bribes and blah blah Delegates can't negotiate with the team for votes if the main chain votes outweigh the bridge chain funds 60/40 mak [7:54 PM] Ohh I think it works. Just that there is a lot of unnecessary headache involved which can be taken out completely. (edited) JayCrypto [7:54 PM] @Matthew_DC are you saying that ark holders can vote on bridhechain delegates even though they have no bridhechain tokens? Matthew_DC [7:54 PM] you are creating checks and balances on manipulation by the team in a sense @JayCrypto yes, as an added security measure for the bridge chain to avoid 51% attacks in their infant stages you would essentially have to take over ARK main chain, plus a % of bridge chain tokens to gain control JayCrypto [7:55 PM] Or you could issue 1 trillion of your own tokens Is there a yes no option for this Matthew_DC [7:56 PM] It doesn't matter if % is 60/40 in delegate appointment 60% of weight from ARK main net and 40% from bridge chain net voting mak [7:56 PM] "you are creating checks and balances on manipulation by the team in a sense" I disagree with that assessment. I am creating a decentralized protocol that manages the financial layer across multiple chains. The team should only have to worry about their product and not about convincing delegates to join them by offering rewards outside of the blockrewards. Matthew_DC [7:56 PM] so no matter how many tokens you make, it still holds in the calculation They aren't offering outside rewards of any kind JayCrypto [7:57 PM] Is there a yes no option for this Cos I wouldn't want it Matthew_DC [7:57 PM] They build their product, delegates need to worry about convincing people to vote for them yes or no option for what? mike [7:57 PM] Implementing AIP18 and 19 on a bridge chain would make a lot of sense. It can operate with a 2 way peg to ark even, so delegate rewards would be the same, and convertible to Ark, or let the market decide the conversion rate, or use a liquidity gate. Many of the same delegates would operate on it, as has been the case with Persona. mak [7:57 PM] Eventually it's going to happen. Why would a delegate want to run the 100th chain in the ark ecosystem when it's expected market cap would never reach a million dollars. JayCrypto [7:58 PM] For this 60 034'3!5 thing Matthew_DC [7:58 PM] Why would anyone run as a delegate on any network JayCrypto [7:58 PM] Percent Matthew_DC [7:58 PM] at some point the team has to do some form of work Crypto needs to get away from this entitlement stage mak [7:58 PM] @mike it could be done that way for convenience but it's functionally equivalent to having the voting on main ark chain. Matthew_DC [7:58 PM] if your product is stupid and no one believes it will ever have value and you aren't making any progress or building anything then your network SHOULD die mike [7:59 PM] also, Rob has set up multiple chains to run on the same servers, so lower volume chains can be run very cost effectively. Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [8:00 PM] But then again, even with a great product, starting isn't always easy, so this marketplace of delegate could enable great project effectively. mike [8:00 PM] yes, mainchain voting could be mirrored over to the bridged aip19 chain. Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [8:00 PM] It would reduce risks for delegates too when they actually help a starting project, before they decide if they will run a full delegate on the chain or not. Matthew_DC [8:01 PM] AIP19 doesn't solve the "I don't want to be a delegate on a useless network" problem either why would someone sit in spots 1,000-2,000 and run a node at a loss? same problem mike [8:01 PM] i've never seen a new project having problems recruiting delegates, but they do sometimes have a problem retaining them if interest in the project fades due to failure to execute. Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [8:02 PM] @mike but so far there isn't many projects. mak [8:02 PM] I think you misunderstood my point @Matthew_DC. I think delegates are service providers that get paid to ensure decentralization to your bridgechain. They may or may not provide additional services to remain competitive but that's irrelevant for now. What I'm saying is that we can streamline the back and forth that is required currently to get delegates and keep them running (look at KAPU). Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [8:02 PM] When the number multiplies, there will be much more to chose from, and this might become another kind of trouble. mak [8:03 PM] However if you don't agree with that perspective then that's fine. Someone will eventually come in and implement AIP19 on their forked chain and we will let the market decide if it's useful or not. vela_nova [8:03 PM] Dunno ark the product can have everything but a driving purpose and still fail economically Matthew_DC [8:03 PM] You just need a central place for delegates to market themselves and their services and for projects to find them Master [8:03 PM] What’s the debate :eyes: vela_nova [8:03 PM] That is why I like what mak is getting at Matthew_DC [8:03 PM] You can do that without massive changes to the ARK Main net JayCrypto [8:03 PM] I'm just shocked that ark bridgechains have to use ark main chain delegates Jarunik [8:04 PM] A normal website is enough as delegate market place. I would have to run different servers for different chains anyway ... no need to integrate delegate operation into one mainchain. Matthew_DC [8:04 PM] And I agree the market should decide so you won't find any argument there. I would love to see multiple models challenge one another because in the end it makes the winner much stronger Jarunik [8:05 PM] More delegate tools that come out of the box and are easy to port over would help though.. :wink: Matthew_DC [8:05 PM] but anyone struggling to find delegates right now, it is most likely because their idea just sucks Jarunik [8:06 PM] Let's first have a good and stable payment solution for all bridge chains without the need for every delegate to code some script himself ... will already make delegate recruitement easier. Matthew_DC [8:06 PM] That's not going to happen. Delegate payouts won't be coded into the network itself by us at any point. Jarunik [8:06 PM] Things like that are much easier to implement and much less invasive. I didn't say that ... Brian already made a good plugin. Matthew_DC [8:07 PM] That I'm fine with Djenny Floro (Ark Tribe) [8:07 PM] @Jarunik something like that implemented in the Ark Commander? Matthew_DC [8:07 PM] but no baking it into the network core itself Jarunik [8:07 PM] If that becomes well tested and easy to use ... will help all bridge chains Matthew_DC [8:07 PM] for previously stated reasons Jarunik [8:07 PM] i don't want anything in the core :stuck_out_tongue: i love the bare bone approach of v2 Matthew_DC [8:07 PM] shit guys, I'm really enjoying this but I was supposed to leave 7 minutes ago to take my kids somewhere try to capture some of the convo if you can and post a pastebin link in the github maybe just for the sake of saving it Jarunik [8:08 PM] complex stuff tends to fail too easily mak [8:08 PM] have fun :slightly_smiling_face: I think I've laid out all of my points. It's upto the delegates to decide if the idea holds merit and should be implemented. JayCrypto [8:09 PM] Is this 60/40 thing a slider which new bridgechains can use @Matthew_DC spghtzzz(ark.party is not a website) [8:09 PM] I always thought the ArkVM was meant to address this, if a person who is starting a new bridge does not **need** to change any node code, or **want** to run any delegates they can just create a token. Perhaps I am wrong though. mike [8:09 PM] i think implementing aip19 on a forked chain is best approach, and let market decide. i think there are some very good ideas to try in aip18 and 19, which is the advantage of ark's modular approach. ideas like this can be tried without risking the main chain, or having to hardfork it to add them in. By allowing a token swap or doing an airdrop, ark holders can have a stake in its success if it really does take off. mak [1 hour ago] If there's a 1:1 peg with ark on the new chain then there's no economic incentive for people to hold the new chain. However it will split the votes so it would be easier to attack the new network that's hosting the bridgechain delegate voting system. mak [1 hour ago] So if we want to experiment with it then we can't have the peg there. mike [1 hour ago] so you can mirror the voting from the main chain, just ignore votes for delegates that aren't running on the bridged chain. mak [1 hour ago] At that point is it a different chain anymore?
There have been several questions regarding how Decred makes minority forked coins, in the sense of Ethereum Classic and Bitcoin Gold, extremely difficult without majority stakeholder approval, and, for all intents and purposes, impossible without also destroying the hybrid nature and security properties of the system in the process. In order to try and explain why this is the case, the following is an analysis that first describes the important aspects of the system as they relate to this topic and then walks through the process of what would happen in a fork attempt under the worst case scenario.
The Proof-of-Stake (PoS) system works by locking up chunks of coins into what is called a ticket. These tickets function as the fundamental building block which allows stakeholders to participate in governance. Once acquired, all tickets are placed into a pool of live tickets after a maturity period. This pool is known as the live ticket pool and has a target size of 40960, but it can grow larger or shrink as tickets are added and removed throughout the course of operation, and the ticket price (stake difficulty) is adjusted, per supply and demand, to try to maintain that target pool size. This is covered more in depth in DCP0001 for readers who want a more thorough treatment. The consensus rules enforce a ticket selection algorithm that works to ensure that ticket selection is both random and impossible for miners to manipulate. It achieves this by deterministically and pseudorandomly selecting 5 tickets from the aforementioned live ticket pool which are eligible to vote on the previous block and that at least 3 of them must be included. The subsidy is reduced if only 3 or 4 votes are included, by 20% and 40%, respectively, in order to discourage miners from ignoring votes and otherwise attempting to game the system. A detailed treatment of the theory behind each of these parameters is beyond the scope of this post, however, it primarily has to do with protection against various adversarial situations. Further, the deterministic pseudorandom ticket selection process is primarily based on seeding it with the hash of the block it's voting on. This implies that, if you're building, say block 100000, on top of block 99999 (hash 00000000000000dab92a8a0c0e706eb74115f0f373669c01ffb4882f9555f494), the chosen tickets are known to every other full node on the network and can't be changed without going back to find a new solution to block 99999 such that it has a different hash (say 00000000000004289d9a7b0f7a332fb60a1c221faae89a107ce3abbd186c386c), which in turn will cause a new set of 5 tickets to be selected for voting eligibility. It is also important to note that stakeholders must be present on a given chain fork at the time of block creation in order to cast their vote when their associated ticket is selected. The act of acquiring a ticket does not mean it automatically votes. This distinction is key because it means that the ticket pool on a minority fork is largely comprised of non-voting tickets which is why the minority chain is unable to continue.
Scenario, Assumptions, and Methodology
With all of that in mind, let's walk through an attempt to create a minority fork that the majority stakeholders don't agree with. Let's also assume that both sides of the attempted fork have equal hash power (so 50% hash power on each fork). Given that a successful vote requires 75% stakeholder approval, in the worst case, 75% of the stakeholders are on the majority chain, while 25% are on the minority chain. Further, let's assume the most recent block at the point of the fork is block 99999. Thus both side of the fork are working on trying to find block 100000, one side on the minority rule set, the other side on the majority rule set. Finally, in order to simplify the description and make it easier to follow the logic, since only 25% of the stakeholders are on the minority chain, let's say that every 4th ticket in the live ticket pool is a stakeholder on the minority chain and the rest are on the majority chain. In other words, ticket numbers 0, 4, 8, 12, 16, 20, 24, ..., 40956 are tickets in the live pool which represent stakeholders on the minority chain, while ticket numbers 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, 15, 17, 18, 19, 21, 22, 23, 25, ..., 40957, 40958, 40959, are tickets in the live pool which represent stakeholders on the majority chain.
The following is the sequence of events that will happen:
The hash power on both chains will try to build a new block on top of block 99999.
Per the above description, in order for this new block to be built on the minority chain, it needs to acquire at least 3 votes from the live ticket pool and the selected votes depend on block 99999.
The tickets required to build block 100000, which is based on 99999 are ticket numbers 17113, 17331, 21307, 21328, and 24903.
As we can see, 4 out of those 5 tickets are stakeholders on the majority chain (ticket numbers 17113, 17331, 21307, and 24903), which means they are going to provide their votes for block 100000 on the majority chain.
The minority chain is only able to acquire 1 vote (ticket number 21328), so it can't build a block 100000, instead, it must go back and find a new solution to block 99999 in order to cause a new set of tickets to be selected.
At this point, the chains now look as follows. The parentheses with the * in this notation indicate blocks that are being worked on.
... -> 99999 -> (100000*) <--- majority stakeholders (75%) are on this chain \-> (99999a*) <--- minority stakeholders (25%) are still on this chain
In other words, the majority chain is now working on block 100000, while the minority chain is stuck trying to find a new solution for block 99999 in order to get a new set of tickets hoping this time they'll be able to get at least 3 votes. Since, per our thought experiment, both chains have equal hash power, we can safely assume that, on average, both block 100000 on the majority chain a new block 99999 (call it 99999a) on the minority chain will be found around the same time.
At this point, the following will happen:
The hash power on the majority chain will try to build a new block on top of the majority chain's block 100000. The votes required for this block are ticket numbers 563, 6766, 21009, 37394, and 37775.
This time around all 5 out of those 5 tickets happen to be stakeholders on the majority chain, which means they are going to provide their votes for block 100000 on the majority chain which allows block 100001 to be built.
The minority chain, now with a new version of block 99999 (99999a) has a new hash, so it ends up requiring ticket numbers 1069, 8007, 16413, 19172, and 31821.
The minority chain is still only able to acquire 1 vote (ticket number 19172), so it must once again go back and find yet another new solution to block 99999 in order to cause a new set of tickets to be selected.
At this point, the chains now look as follows:
... -> 99999 -> 100000 -> (100001*) <--- majority stakeholders (75%) are on this chain \-> (99999b*) <--- minority stakeholders (25%) are still on this chain
In other words, the majority chain is now working on block 100001, while the minority chain is still stuck trying to find yet another new solution for block 99999 in order to get a new set of tickets hoping this time they'll be able to get at least 3 votes. Since, per our thought experiment, both chains have equal hash power, we can again safely assume that, on average, both block 100001 on the majority chain and a new block 99999 (call it 99999b) on the minority chain will be found around the same time.
At this point, the following will happen:
The hash power on the majority chain will try to build a new block on top of the majority chain's block 100001. The votes required for this block are ticket numbers 174, 1999, 12808, 31928, and 38317.
This time, 3 out of those 5 tickets are stakeholders on the majority chain (ticket numbers 174, 1999, 38317), which means they are going to provide their votes for block 100001 on the majority chain which allows block 100002 to be built.
The minority chain, now with a new version of block 99999 (99999b) has a new hash, so it ends up requiring ticket numbers 4653, 15211, 29988, 35175, and 35665.
The minority chain is still only able to acquire 1 vote (ticket number 29988), so it must once again go back and find yet another new solution to block 99999 in order to cause a new set of votes to be selected.
At this point, the chains now look as follows:
... -> 99999 -> 100000 -> 100001 -> (100002*) <--- majority stakeholders (75%) are on this chain \-> (99999c*) <--- minority stakeholders (25%) are still on this chain
In other words, the majority chain is now working on block 100002, while the minority chain is still stuck trying to find yet another new solution for block 99999 in order to get a new set of tickets hoping this time they'll be able to get at least 3 votes.
Fast-forward to Block 100010
The process repeats until, eventually, some variant of block 99999 on the minority chain gets lucky and happens to select 3 tickets that are on the minority chain. This turns out to be roughly 1 in 10 tries. So, fast forwarding a bit to see the chain by the time this happens, the chains would look as follows:
... -> 99999 -> 100000 -> 100001 -> 100002 -> ... -> 100009 -> (100010*) <--- majority stakeholders (75%) are on this chain \-> 99999j -> (100000a*) <--- minority stakeholders (25%) are still on this chain
It should be pretty clear, since both chains have equal hash power, there is no way the minority chain can now ever catch up to the majority chain. Furthermore, the same process is going to repeat for the minority chain's block 100001 where it will have to go back and remine (find new solutions) for its block 100000 over and over until it gets a lucky draw again such that it gets the 3 votes it needs. Consequently, miners are not going to stay on the minority chain because they're never going to be able to become the majority chain and hence would be mining for free.
What if the minority chain gets more than 10x the hash power of the main chain?
Theoretically, if the minority chain with only 25% stakeholder approval had 10x the hash power of the main chain, yes, it could keep up with the majority chain, however, this is not a realistic scenario because of the economic incentives. Mining the minority chain with 10x the hash power effectively means the miners would only be getting 1/10 of the subsidy as they would on the majority chain based on hash power alone, but it's reduced even further by being 1/10 of 60% of the subsidy due to only being able to acquire 3 votes on average. In other words, miners would only receive 6% of the rewards they would by mining the majority chain, or looking it from the other way, they would receive 94% less by mining the minority chain. Putting that into numbers, if a miner had, say 5% of the total network hash power, they could expect to receive roughly 5% of the PoW subsidy per block, or 5% of ~13.89 ~= 0.6945 DCR at the current time. However, on the minority chain, first the subsidy would be 60% of ~13.89 ~= 8.334 DCR, and then that 5% hash power would only be 0.5% of the total hash power on the minority chain, thus 0.5% of ~8.334 ~= 0.04167 DCR. Thus, we can see that 0.04167 DCR is indeed 6% of 0.6945 DCR. PoW mining is very competitive since it is a zero sum game. Most miners, especially those without huge advantages such as free electricity, have very thin margins and are often banking on future appreciation to pick up the slack. Miners would actually have to pay money to mine the minority chain due to the aforementioned effective 94% reduction in income.
Can't somebody just change the consensus rules to ignore the stakeholders?
Yes, it is theoretically possible to do this, but doing so would completely destroy the hybrid system and return the forked currency to effectively being a pure Proof-of-Work system thereby removing any value of the system. It would also undoubtedly no longer be Decred, since, unlike in a pure PoW coin where nobody can really say which chain is the "real" one and which isn't due to lack of a provable and formalized governance system, Decred has a very clear and well understood governance model where the majority of stakeholders make the decision which chain is the real Decred and they do so in an on-chain and cryptographically provable fashion. Further, stakeholders sign up for Decred with the expectation that major consensus decisions are made by the stakeholders themselves. Removing the authority of the stakeholders would be akin to removing Proof-of-Work from a pure PoW coin. In other words, it would completely destroy the security properties of the system. How much confidence are holders going to have in a coin that ignores one of the primary characteristics it claims to offer?
Satoshi decided to use 0x1d00ffff as a difficulty for the genesis block, ... Where bits -> difficulty is done using Bitcoin's GetDifficulty() and difficulty -> bits is done using difficulty2bits() above. If we arrive back at the same bits value then the difficulty2bits() function is correct. The only exception is when (bits & 0x00800000) != 0, since this means that bits is a negative number ... Bitcoin Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for Bitcoin crypto-currency enthusiasts. It only takes a minute to sign up. Sign up to join this community. Anybody can ask a question Anybody can answer The best answers are voted up and rise to the top Bitcoin . Home ; Questions ; Tags ; Users ; Unanswered ; Jobs; Relationship between Hash-Rate and Difficulty. Ask Question Asked 7 years ... Digital money that’s instant, private, and free from bank fees. Download our official wallet app and start using Bitcoin today. Read news, start mining, and buy BTC or BCH. Two months after the network’s halving event, it’s harder than ever to mine bitcoin. Bitcoin mining difficulty, a measure of how hard it is to compete for block rewards on the network, just set a new record high of 17.35 trillion around 12:00 UTC on Monday. This marks a 9.89% jump from the previous record... The very first way to get your own Bitcoins was through mining. In 2009, every block mined (every 10 minutes on average) brought a reward of 50 BTC to the lucky one who managed to solve the computational problem. Right now, every block brings 12,5 BTC. While the reward is still luring, there are some issues which stand in the way of earning some loot: – The hashing difficulty has grown ...
Bitcoin Block Reward Halving What is it, and why is it HUGE for BTC Buyers & Miners
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